Thanks Kevin. Has anyone received a 171 lately?

Thanks Kevin for the update. Has anyone received a 171 lately?

Thanks Susana for all your hard work for the children, and for us!! I wish more was known about in process adoptions, whether they will proceed if in fact a shut down occurs. We will all be awaiting any news!! God Bless! CC

Kevin,
Can you explain what all of this means? The president does want to stop all adoptions? Or does he just want Social Welfare to sign off on passports instead of the PGN? I am confused as to what all of this means for those in process. It sounds like without the approval of congress that this can not go into effect...

When I click on link for ADA March 2nd update...I get the 2/28 update...is there a problem with link?

Thanks

I am sorry, but what are the key elements of this protocol document? This is what I understand?

- no immediate cessation of adoption under current procedure
- changes detailed in the protocol are more towards establishing who the children are, where they are located (ie, registering the private hogars)
- more thorough review of children vs. adoptive parents?
- another step before passport is issued to adopted children? this is after PGN has already finalized the adoption??? Why would they want to keep that children in the country after they have themselves signed off on the final adoption?

I don't understand ADA write up? why would the PGN lawyers operate any different than they are doing today? Please enlighten!

Thanks

Sri

Mary Bonn found a loop hole in the system. It appears that she forged a passport for the child and hired a Guatemalan woman to pose as the mother and bring the child into the US. This loop hole actually has nothing to do with the Guatemalan adoption process. This loop hole is in immigration, at the borders of Guatemala and the US.

An unlicensed facilitator in the US named Mary Bonn illegally brought a child from Guatemala into the US. This has stirred up a real hornets nest. Many different interests are getting involved and of course some are using it to further their own goals.

The following is my understanding of the matters. Unicef has taken political correctness to an extreme and will only give money to countries that stop international adoptions. The idea is that placing children from less developed countries, like Guatemala, with families from more developed countries, like the US, is a type of stealing the developing countries assets. My understanding is that all of Latin American, except Guatemala has stopped international adoptions. Again my understanding is that the chief of police from Honduras recently visited Guatemala and said that Honduras has a lot of problems with orphaned children living on and wondering the streets as career criminals. He pointed out that Guatemala is 10 years ahead of Honduras in solving this problem because they do international adoptions.

The executive branch of Guatemala wants the Unicef money so they use every opportunity to cast the Guatemalan adoption process in a bad light. The executive branch is using the “protocols” as a part of their campaign to stop international adoptions.

Are there problems with the adoption process. Yes. However, at this point they have several safe guards in place. They require that the biological mother and child be DNA tested to determine that the child is her’s. For my case, the samples were shipped to the US and tested. Further, I saw that the DNA test results included pictures of the biological mother with the child. The tests are witnessed. The mother and the foster mother are interviewed. The mother is video taped saying that she is willing giving the child up for adoption. The mother signs documents to this effect. People who violate these rules are arrested and prosecuted. I’m sure that other safeguards can be put in place and should be put in place, but I can’t help but think that the current safeguards provide a pretty big deterrent to child trafficking.

Mary Bonn found a loop hole in the system. It appears that she forged a passport for the child and hired a Guatemalan woman to pose as the mother and bring the child into the US. This loop hole actually has nothing to do with the Guatemalan adoption process. This loop hole is in immigration, at the borders of Guatemala and the US.

Maybe Unicef and the Guatemalan executive branch got together and paid Mary Bonn to bring that child in. Bad joke but it helps me let off steam. I’m a frustrated scared woman waiting for her child.

Hi Linda,
Are you talking about an I-171H approval letter?

We have read what the Protocal said and the response from the ADA, my question is what is the Congress saying? I haven't seen anything from them.

Thank you

So is the protocolo in the process of being put into place? Or is it still up for consideration? To me, this sounds like an imminent shut down for all cases if it is in the process of being implemented. If it is still just a possibility, there seems to be a chance. We are 171H in country, poa in country, and dossier in country and have accepted a referral, and I'm feeling like it's all falling down now! Help. Please.

There is a new posting ont he ADA website, does anyone know what it means?

I, like many others, don't quite understand what this all means. We have our referral, all paperwork is in Guatemals and we are awaiting DNA. I'm so scared about this! Kevin, do you know any other info or can you explain a little?

I have been in PGN since August and I'm confused as to what is happening. I've visited twice but now I don't understand what is going on. Is this something to worry about in terms of PGN not approving any adoptions at this time?

why wouldn't they just stop NEW adoptions....like no one else can get a referral.... but finish the ones that have started? What on earth are they going to do with all these children?

for those of us who are waiting for referrals I certainly hope that we'll still be able to move in to the process before any stops are made on adoptions

We received our 171 this week so we're hoping this means something good.

I previously asked if anyone had received their 171H lately. Right after that post I did get a call from Homeland security verifying my name and they said we should receive our 171H early this week. I'm so glad to get to this point.
However, where is the process will guatemala grandfather people in? If we rush POA, referral etc? Any suggestions???

To Maria,

You said you have been in PGN since August. I have been in since end of January 2007. Did PGN ask you for a lot of new documents that they didn't request before or did they ask you to re-do a lot of documents? Do you have any feel for why it has taken this long? I'm trying to figure out if this is the norm now.

I was kicked out because they wanted the pre-approval, they wanted my home study notarized in a different way, and they don't have the DNA results yet. My facilitator said she thought I'd complete PGN 6-8 weeks after they receive the things they kicked me out for.

Cheryl,
How are you in the PGN without DNA results and the pre-approval? I am waiting on pre-approval and was told we couldn't go in until we had that. I hope things move smoothly for you.
S

A few things concern me here. First, I think it is wholly unethical for agencies to rush prospective families into the POA or referral process until they have a handle on whether those cases will be grandfathered in (there is no such clear indication now, and they shouldn't be definitively telling people that it is clear). Second, I am really getting frustrated by how many facilitators and in-country attorneys are submitting cases to PGN without the REQUIRED paperwork (i.e. the DNA and/or PA). All this does is take the reviewers' time away from cases that are legitimately submitted with all of the required paperwork. After all, someone has to review these deficient files, and that takes time. Our file was not submitted until we had all of the paperwork, and yet we are sitting in PGN, possibly waiting for a reviewer to sift through deficient files and issue previos on cases that should not be there in the first place. Think about it this way: once your file is complete and ready for review, how would you feel to see that others who submitted prematurely are taking the reviewers' time and attention away from your file?

I agree completely, Kimberly!!! It doesn't seem right that people are submitting their paperwork to the PGN when it is incomplete. What is the point, and it will only hold things up (and probably make those reviewing cases very frustrated).

A deficient file comes in many forms. There are far more cases receiving previos that are submitted "complete" due to attorneys/facilitator/etc... who are incompetent in Guatemalan adoption law. The unpredictability of PGN and the US Embassy have prompted more to submit without pre-approval. And, to say that a "non pre-approval" file holds up a "complete" file is giving PGN much more credit on the way they operate than what is reality.

Troy
guatadopt

Thank you, Troy!
As a mom who has an attorney who makes a practice of submitting into PGN without PA i have been catching this kind of flack for some time now. I am not the one who submitted the file, as a matter of fact, i was not even consulted on the matter. (imagine that)

I realize how frustrating this whole adoption process is......we signed with our agency January 2006 and our two are still not home. I know it makes people feel better if they can blame somebody or something for the slowdowns.

The truth is, I don't really think anyone knows the real reason why it is so backlogged. I, for one, am not convinced that a file submitted without PA is holding up the process that much, as Troy eluded to.

From what i understand, the reviewers are moving a lot faster than Sr. Barios, at this point. Don't you really think a reviewer will ko a file with no PA and not send it on to Barios? So, if it is passing through the faster part of the process and not clogging the slower part of the process then what is the big gripe? Especially since we, as stressed-out adoptive parents can do absolutely NOTHING about it anyway?

I also believe that the practice of submitting files without PAs started for a reason. Perhaps it was the best way to get things done at one point. If it is not effective now, maybe they'll change the practice of doing it. I also assume that if it was such a slowdown for the reveiwers they would not allow it and put an end to it, right?

I am no expert and may be talking complete nonsense so please enlighten me if i am off base.
I would just ask for a bit of grace as we are all going through a tough time right now. I think we all would like some support and good news and to not be blamed for something to which we hold no reponsibility.

Thanks,
warmly,
jd

When I agreed with another comment I was never implying that adoptive parents were responsible for submitting paperwork, I was speaking about the lawyers- and never meant to imply that parents had anything to do with it. Even then, apparently, I was wrong in my assumption that this would slow things down (thank you, Troy for clarifying) and I am sorry for that. Please know that I want nothing but the best for all of the adoptive families and waiting children involved. I wish everyone "luck" and hope that all cases move through quickly.

No offense taken on my end what-so-ever! 8) If you read the recent ADA post from their meeting yesterday, you'll see where the real problem has always been - "on the director's desk." The reviewers themselves have always been good about "reviewing" cases and offering opinions. Most do their job rather efficiently. The major delays occur when the file is sent to the director's desk for final signature (where, by the way, additional or completely new previos may be issued). They can sit for months with nothing done, and then out of nowhere they are "kicked out."

Several months ago, when Mr. Barrios was being extremely contrary, he would report hundreds of "outs" for press release and internet gossip. Only after a few days would we realize that every single "out" was a "previoed out." So, after sitting for months, he would release each case with a previo.

Troy

How very frustrating, Troy. On the ADA site it also mentioned something about legal action against Sr. Barrios. Maybe that will happen or perhaps just the threat will achieve the appropriate goal? Maybe he is not intimidated by any of that. What a power trip to have so many lives in the palm or your hand, or at the tip of your pen.

Susan, i completely understand what you are saying. No ill feelings here, as well. I think on other groups they always seem to jump on anyone who says their file was put into PGN without PA like it was their fault. I think i am a bit sensitive about it and just wanted to address it, i guess. No big deal, really.

blessings and a good day to all,
jd

Rest assured, I have no delusions about where the responsibility lies with filing incomplete files - it is solely with the attorney and facilitator, and I bear no grudge against the parents. However, from a practical standpoint I still find it hard to believe that these files have no effect on the review period. Yes, files sit on the director's desk for an excruciating period of time. But some files sit with reviewers, too.

I also see a bigger problem with attorneys and facilitators submitting clearly incomplete paperwork to PGN; it smacks of an attempt to end-run or game the system. By placing a file that is, on its face, deficient into the PGN review system, the attorney is - both implicitly and expressly - asking PGN to sign off on that fundamentally deficient file. And in theory, at least, there is a risk that a reviewer who is not paying attention (or a reviewer who has been compromised) could sign off and send it to the director, which only heightens scrutiny at all levels (including the director's) because now EVERYONE has to be on the lookout for these files. I think this type of implicit attempt to game the system is one example of the type of attorney shenanigans the new manual is attempting to eradicate.

All that being said, so as not to offend, I will keep my criticism of this questionable practice to myself, and will stew in silence until someone in PGN finally bothers to review our file and give us a thumbs up or thumbs down.

Kimberly,

Please do not sit quietly and "stew." Part of what this site encourages is varying perspectives. As this topic likely only matters to a small faction of adoptive parents, it isn't discussed too often.

With ALL the variables in PGN, even those we do NOT mention, the idea of a handful of "incomplete" files having a "major" impact on how quickly "complete" cases are reviewed is insignificant. Through the years, issues such as "who the attorney as made mad," or "something the attorney said" has had more of an impact on how and when files get reviewed.

However, your perspective on this has given me one more idea for our April visit! I think I may just go to PGN and ask what "they" feel creates a majority of delays!!

thanks,

Troy
guatadopt

Concerning the discussion of filing so called "incomplete files" with PGN. I'm an engineer by training and I work in the legal field writing applications for patents and this background definitely affects how I view these matters. PGN obviously allows files to be submitted before they have everything in them. This is a "strategy" that they allow for or else it simply wouldn't be happening. I don't think of it as "unfair" that people are submitting files that don't have everything to exit PGN. It is simply a strategy (and a legal one at that) that your attorney may choose to adopt. There are certain advantages to this strategy. It allows us to determine and correct early on a lot of things that PGN may reject. In the computer world we would call this "parallel processing." I would imagine that early filing may have other advantages. Instead of seeing this as "unfair" maybe you should hope that your attorney will adopt the same "strategy" so that you will get through PGN more quickly.

Lastly, I concur that the reviewers aren't the bottle neck anyway.

Kindest Regards, Cheryl

There are many ways to look at it, that is for sure. For instance, our "legal representative" only submits what is required by Guatemalan adoption law, which by the way is fairly minimal. His cases move through at what would be considered within the "norm." I know several agencies/attorneys that submit dossiers that have numerous "extra" files - such as FBI prints, medicals for siblings, etc...

Aren't they, in a sense slowing down my file because it is taking extra time to review these unecessary additions?

Troy
guatadopt

Can anyone comment on how and/or why adoptions by single women might be affected? My agency is warning me they might be, but didn't elaborate. Thanks.

We just got into PGN today! 03/09/2007. So, I guess this means they are still taking cases. Hooray!

Kelli,
We got OUT on Wednesday with our daughter and our son went IN on Wednesday. So, i guess the door both ways is still working. I just keep hoping this 3rd time takes for our son. Our daughter was only in one time. Go figure.
jd

Some more thoughts on how to get your adoption processed as quickly as possible.
1) Of course you want to get your homestudy and paper work done as quickly as possible. You want a home study agency that will beat deadlines if you manage to beat deadlines in getting everything to them. I beat my deadline by a month but my case worker still took the full amount of time alotted to her. I'm not happy about that and if that one month makes a difference between me being able to adopt or not, I'm going to remind them about it.
2) you want a facilitator that gets back to you quickly when you need information. I'm happy to report that my faclitator pretty much always gets back to me within 24 hours.
3) you need to do your paper work flawlessly. Work closerly with your facilitator to understand all of your processes. I'm constantly talking to my facilitator and having her review things-how things are worded, my understanding of how to go about things, ...
4) you want a guatemalan attorney that does their paper work flawlessly.
5) You want a guatemalan attorney that hasn't and won't piss PGN off.

I'm not sure how you can determine whether the guatemalan attorney you will be assigned does really good work, but it definitely makes sense to ask around and let your facilitator know that you have high expectations.

Anyway, that is my 10 cents worth. Probably too late for a lot of people to implement these ideas but hopefully people who are just getting started are also reading this.

To the single woman whose facilitator wouldn't give her reasons for their rational about single women. I'm single. I have asked my facilitator about that. They haven't heard anything indicating that single women are being targeted more than others at this point in time or that there are plans to do so in the near future.

Your facilitator works for you. You have paid them to do their job. If I were in your shoes, I'd tell them that it is part of their job to explain their rational behind this statement. I'm not paying my facilitator to muddy the waters and make things more confusing for me and I have communicated that expectation to them.

Good luck.

What is really concerning us as we wait for our child in Guatemala is the latest report from ADA.
Of course JCICS worry about all the orphans that will not be adopted longterm with the changes that are happening in Guatemala, but to be fair
there are 5000 children who have referrals and are paper ready that are waiting to come to loving families in the USA, these children short term have to be JCICS priority. We as their parents have done the work, paid out large amounts of money and gone through the emotional hoops of waiting with more delays and more waiting. We love the children we have chosen, we want them home.
While I think ADA is thinking of the bigger picture of adoption longterm in Guatemala and this is a great concern to us all, I think it is not selfish in wanting to get the 5000 refered children through PGN and home to their families first.
Changes are going to take time and realistically our 5000 children cannot be kept waiting with their imminent future not stable if not adopted now. Sometimes you have to lobby for the good of a few in the short term while changes are implamented in order to save the rest.
We are worried if ADA lobby for all the children, our 5000 will be lost.