I just received an email saying that the director of my agency participated in a meeting with the US state department. The following is a summary of what they discussed. People who have been issued pink will find this comforting.

08.02.07 GUATEMALA UPDATE ~ SECOND DNA MEETING SUMMARY

Here a result of the meeting today:

All cases that already have their Pink Slips will NOT be affected by this change. The Embassy in Guatemala will address the panel of physicians in Guatemala so that they no longer refuse to give the child his/her last examination.

All cases submitted to the U.S. Embassy for Pink Slip THIS week will not be affected
Effective August 06 (08/06/07) all cases submitted for Pink Slips will be affected. At time of submittal, the U.S Embassy staff person will issue the second DNA authorization. This form will “look” different than the one used for the first DNA.
Upon receipt of payment, the attorney will take the child for his/her DNA test.
DNA specimen will be sent to the lab that did the initial DNA, in our case, LabCorp. LabCorp will send results to the Embassy.
Once the U.S. Embassy receives the results and if it is a match, they will issue the Pink Slip.
Abandonment cases do not have to go through this final step.
The Embassy anticipates that this extra step will add one to two more weeks at the most to the process.

The same group that met today will have a follow up meeting in a month or so to see how this is or is not working.

My main thought on this topic is, "why now?" I am not saying that it is a good or bad step. I am too far removed from the process to have it concern my adoptions. I just wonder why now when adoptions from Guatemala are closing in just a few short months. Are they fixing the door right before tearing down the house?

Cheryl,
Why was the panel of physicians refusing to give the final examinations?
Lizzie

Cheryl,

Thank you for sharing. This brings a little more clarity to the situation. I just wished my case wasn't one that they were testing this on.

Cathy, There is nothing stated for sure that the adoptions are going to be shut down. I read from one of the adoption sources recently that the US has now delayed putting Hague into effect until the end of the first quarter 2008. This is what happened in 2007 as well...they kept delaying. Keep the faith.

Lisa - Waiting for Maylin and PINK

Cathy, I dont think it's fair to say that, "adoptions will be closing in a few short months." That is sooooo speculative.

Cathy, will all do respect, I don't understand your comments about Guatemala being closed in a few short months. No one really knows what is going to happen as of Jan. 1st. Most believe that while changes will be occuring for some months to come, the Country will not close to adoptions. If the Country does close, I don't believe it will be in a short few months, but sometime later in 2008, and that will be if Guatemala hasn't made signifcant strides toward being Hague compliant. In my opinion, this step by the US is in an effort to assure continuance of adoptions in Guatemala.

My wife and I just got out of PGN on July 23 after 7 agonizing months of kick outs for misspellings etc. Our Annabel will be a minimum of 15 months old by the time we get her. This new DNA test is yet another hoop to jump through and twist of the knife. It's tiring to have the rules change in midgame again.

We just began the paperchase for our daughter's sibling. Our agency has been up front with us about this as well as everything else from the very beginning. I can only hope that other PAPs get accurate info as well. Thanks for posting!!

Is it just the English teacher in me that is annoyed by the lack of grammar in the title or should all be concerned that this is our government misusing the contraction "it's"??

I understand the impotance of this, but what really annoys me is the fact that there was no notice that this was going to be implemented.

Does anyone know if there was any for warning that this was going to happen. I find it hard to believe that the US Government can come up with a plan and implement it within 4 days.

There are a few comments that I would like to address and hope that the posters will think about this a little more.

1 - "this is yet another hoop..." I disagree. This is not an unmeasured delay imposed by PGN or the Embassy that *complicates* the process. There are no different requirements that send parents scrambling. While another delay is frustrating, I am hoping that a factual test will replace subjective scrutiny (which can take much longer and is unpredictable).

2 - "The fact that there was no notice..." Actually, DOS posted several warnings about increased scrutiny. I believe this falls under scrutiny. Its inconvenient, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the additional time added on to the process for no known reason!

3 - "Why Now?" I am concerned about a lengthy moratorium on adoptions. However, initiating a 2nd DNA gave me hope that we're working to close the loopholes, not shut the system down.

4 - Implementation - While it may be a little rough to start, I doubt it will be much of an impact. There are already procedures for DNA. The Embassy does not handle the test taking or lab tests just the results.

I don't believe it makes sense to compare subjective, variable time delays to a scientific last check which has a relatively standard turnaround time. Uh...didn't mean for that to sound complicated.

But the point...

YES, there is a good reason to implement the 2nd DNA and I would hope that every parent (understanding that they are drained from the process already)..would want to ensure that this loophole is closed immediately.

Has anyone heard if this applies to older children? Our daughter is 10 and we know she is the one we met and the origional DNA was completed on her and her parent. It seems to me this is for infants because they change so much. But for older children it seems very unnecessary. I applaud the US for the steps they are taking to provide extra protection for the children and us as parents. We just want her home so we will do whatever it takes. Wishing you all pink.

This second DNA test applies to all children being adopted into the US, regardless of age. Remember this ensures that the child that you are taking home is the same child that was tested in the first place.

I have been thinking and personally been trying to figure out what would happen in the event of a non-match. Well to me even though you have exited PGN and are then responsible for this child, it stands to reason that the case in which a PAP paid for the initial DNA test would then be void based on that the child tested is not the child that you are taking home. Your contract would then be voided and an investigation would then be issued to find out the identity of the child. This scenario has not been explained nor detailed on what the procedure would be in the event of this happening. Your guess is as good as mine.
Marie, Guatadopt.com

Why does everyone seem to think that adoptions will be shut down? They have joined the Hague-isn't this a good thing??? If someone has some "in sight" please let me know- I have three little kids- all born in Guatemala that are very much hoping for a new baby sister sometime in the future-maybe in a couple of years.I sure don't want to get their hopes up if this isn't going to be possible.Thanks.

I understand everyones frustration about this additional test. We are just starting the process. However, if this helps keep adoptions open and shows that these children are being properly processed I am for it. We are blessed to have our process go much faster than other countries. China for one has almost a two year wait from paper submission. I am willing to wait a few extra weeks for child. There is so much bad press about Guatemala adoptions that I am hoping this will put some of that to rest. I will do what it takes to assure our son's safe homecoming.

We her in MN have an additional background fingerprint check to do. We just had that mailed to us a week ago. Some Adams Law for the re-adoption once they are home. Again more paper work but as I said before we will do it in order to get our son home and in our arms.
Speedy pink to all
-Joan

My daughter has a rare genetic mutation, and her original DNA test came back 96.55% because 1 out of 15 loci did not match the birth mother's. They did a series of subsequent tests, and that one loci never matched, but the more loci they examined, the more matches they found. Four months after the first test, they finally did a test that examined a large enough pool of loci to bring the percentage up to 99.9%.

So I am currently in PGN, and will be subjected to this additional test. Will I need to prove that this is the same child who was tested in March, and April and May, doing the normal test that will give us the 96.55%, demonstrating a rare genetic mutation in one very specific loci? Or will I need to actually prove maternity again, and do the more complex and time consuming tests that will bring the percentage up to 99.9%?

Any speculation from the experts?

I just wanted to comment that this new regulation is not out of the blue, but is an additional to safeguard the children that has been discussed as long ago as last fall when we began our process.

Another 'hoop' must be very frustrating for those waiting, but remember that this IS for the children. We want to be sure the children we are taking home are the children that have been given willingly for adoption, and no mistakes have been made.

This wont eliminate that possibility but it sure will make it less likely. I personally applaud this decision.

-Samantha

Kat,
Joining the Hague and being compliant with the Hague are two different things. From what I understand, there are other countries that have not joined the Hague in which adoptions aren't the least at risk. Because they have not joined it, they don't have to comply. Adoptions could be shut down if Guatemala chooses not to get their act together and comply with the various elements of the Hague.

Someone can correct me if I have some of my facts wrong, but this is what I understand to be the case from the things I have read.

I'm thankful for the advocates out there who are doing all they can to educate and influence things so that hopefully Guatemala will remain open for adoptions in the future.

Marie:
Your comment is not entirely correct. This 2nd DNA process does NOT apply to all children being adopted into the US. It only applies to those children being adopted via the relinquishment process. Children who are coming via CoA do not have any DNA tests performed.
This is a flaw in ths new rule
1) They are not treating all adoptions the same
2) There is equal opportunity for fraud whether the child is relinquished or comes via the CoA process.

Sri

Under US law, sending countries will only need to comply with the Hague if they are part of the Hague. It only applies to adoptions between two member states. Even without Guatemala's recent "rejoining" or "affirmation" of the Hague, The US considered Guatemala part of it.

To the poster with the gene mutation question. This new test does not involve the birthmother. It only confirms that the child from the first test is the same as the child from the second. So I assume your child would match himself without issue.

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

I remain concerned about the children who might get identified in this process. In the event of a non-match, what happens? Will someone (who??) figure out who the baby is and see that s/he is returned to the bio parent(s) or other family? Or will s/he just be put in an orphanage? Are there any processes in place to help any children identified in a non-match?

Also, in cases of a non-match, will someone (who??) try to find out who the original child was and what happened to him/her? (ie the child tested in the first DNA test).

If this new process is to benefit children (and I do believe it's a positive step, although difficult for us), there should be processes in place to assist the children caught in a non-match.

Would anyone know the answer to this question? We were submitted to the Embassy in May however they asked for an updated I171 H and fingerprints as mine had expired. Would we fall into the need for the second DNA or not?

Sri- I was answering a posters question about doing a second DNA test for older children. The issue of COA (certificate of abandonement) kids is another matter and of a more complicated nature. The USE issues visas. The USE does not issue COAs. The flaws you see and mentioned, therein lies on the shoulders of the GT court system, who determines and issues COAs.
Marie, Guatadopt.com

For the posts concerning whether or not Guatemala will continue to do adoptions...I have an added comment. My husband and I were just over there for a visit. While there, we had the opportunity to spend some time w/ one of the presidential candidates. And, of course, our main conversation was on adoption and it's future. The impression that I was given, at least for the short game, is that it's not so much whether or not they are Hague compliant as much as it may be who wins the upcoming election. The rumor mill is, (for the two major candidates), one is very much in favor of adoptions and the other is just as opposed. So when it comes to the question of whether or not Guatemala will continue w/ adoptions....who knows? They have many hurdles to manuever. Thank God for the people that are lobbying the welfare of Guatemala's children! Without them, adoptions would have been long forgotten.

Gayle, or anyone with knowledge,
How can we find out where the two top candidates (Colom and Molina) in Guatemalan elections stands on adoption? I have google searched this and cannot find any info--can anyone direct me in the right direction?
Thanks!

It seems to be that the new DNA requirement is basically getting at the low-hanging fruit rather than the root of the problem. I applaud our government (which I rarely do these days) for instituting a safeguard that will probably serve more as a deterrent more than anything else. Of course it's easy for me to say since we brought home our daughter in May and I would dread to be in the position of waiting additional days or weeks. But I think even if that were the case, I'd just spend the final waiting time w/the child in Guatemala if at all possible.

I think the most serious problems are at the initial stages of the adoptions, when some birth mothers are or feel coerced, are bribed, are sadly desperate for cash, and give up their children (or worst case scenario have them taken from them), and then have to follow along in what is likely a painful PGN charade for them. We need to know more about that side of the problem, how extensive is it, and what can be done to mitigate it for everyone's sake. I don't really understand how implementing the Hague can help remedy this situation in a country with so much political violence. Ultimately, this is the responsibility of the Guatemalan government and I know there are many in adoption and welfare who strive towards this (and there are also the unscrupulous and unethical).

Are there any good models of countries that are Hague compliant where adoptions get done with some transparency and efficiency?

Minna

KC,

They are only matching the DNA to the child's own DNA from the first test, not the mother, so you shouldn't have the problems you had before since the same child should give the same DNA sequence even if it is unusual.

A comment from the SriR post, my child has a CoA and to be honest I was so thankful when I heard that we would not be affected by the DNA change. My thought is, it is about time the CoA kids got a break. The process does vary slightly but that is because the cases vary. Fraud is less likely with an abandonment because of the time and effort that goes getting a CoA. Most attornies won't even deal with such cases which is why they are in orphanages. My child had to wait 14 months to get hers. During that time no adoption proceedings can begin, which is why so few of these children get adopted. The adoptions, from what I have been told, also go slower for CoA's. We spent 4 months in family court and then over 2 months at the embassy. We are now in PGN.

EB, you asked me why the panel of physicians have refused to give final examination in the past. EB, I'm just a parent that is in the process of adopting and I posted an email (which is at the top of all of these comments) from the director of my agency so I'm not really in a position of knowing for sure. But my take on that sentence is that the panel of physicians have sometimes refused to give final examination because they suspected the child was swapped. So this new process would address that problem.

It seems like I keep reading comments from people who have exited PGN saying that they are concerned. Note that the email says that all cases that already have their pink slips will not be affected by the change.

Best, Cheryl

With the speculation about Hague compliance in both Guate and the US and specifically when a 'shut down' may occur (in the context of elections), there a few important points:
(1) the US is currently implementing the Hague and accrediting US agencies, (2) while this has been a difficult process to begin, it is happening actively and agressively, (3) the US DOS has stated that the end of December 07 is the target date for ratification. If that date shifts, it won't shift significantly. No matter what any Guate presidential candidate says, the US is going to put an end to interacting with the current system--one way or another. The second DNA test, part of putting an end to the old system, is the result of speculation of 'baby switching' after the first test. I can't imagine that any PAP would want to be a part of a 'baby switch' visa fraud--a practice that has taken place in other countries (like was proven in a court of law in the case of Cambodia). Regardless of Hague Implementation, the US DOS can shut down Guatemala AT ANY TIME by just suspending orphan visas (as in the case of Cambodia). So, you may be fustrated by the DOS second DNA test, but I'd suggest that you consider it a step to keep adoptions ethical and in continuation rather than halting the process entirely. There is enough evidence of fraud for a halt to be real consideration.

Cheryl,
The folks who are out of PGN and concerned are likely those like us...out of PGN, but waiting for pink. When we got out of PGN a couple of weeks ago, we were told it was 3-6 weeks to pick up trip. With the 2nd DNA test, the wait will be extended "7 to 10 business days, at least". It's the "at least" part that has folks out of PGN and pre-pink concerned. I understand the reasons for the 2nd DNA and support it, but it's just frustrating to be so close...and possibly yet so far.

I was very disappointed to hear about the 2nd DNA test. But, now reading everyone's comments I understand that it is a good thing.

Does anyone think that they might push cases through quicker until the end of the year because changes might take effect on Jan. 1, 2008? I was just hoping that they would. I am only in PA for 2 weeks now and I was hoping to get my son by the end of the year.

Lisa T.

Our paper work is being submitted to the embassy tomorrow. We have not been told when the 2nd DNA test will take place. Has anyone heard how long it will actually take for them to request the swab? We are traveling to Guatemala next week to stay with our daughter until we bring her home. We were hoping the DNA test would be done before we arrive on Thursday.

Dear Listmates,
Would those of you who are currently doing this new second DNA test, post your experiences/timelines afterward for those of us who will be looking at this in the near future? Like, any extra paperwork? Extra fees and how much? And especially your timelines! I would like to hear about actual experiences instead of speculation, but I recognize that not many have experienced this yet. Thanks so much!
Cheryl and others, please don't read too much into concerned responses from those of us who are waiting. As sjbj said, we are just so close, and are agonizing with each additional week added. As you probably already know, those of us now in process have already endured the additional scrutiny and delays involved with that. We are not in any way saying that we disagree with the extra precautions, we are just saying that our hearts are breaking.

There is already a thread on the Guatadopt.com Forum on this since August 2. You can scroll to the left of this website, click on forum, register and find the thread, along with much support from other adoptive families.
Marie, Guatadopt.com

Well we made it through the 2nd DNA. Our agency sent our attorney the $100 to cover the cost of the 2nd DNA Test last Tuesday. Yesterday Thursday they received the info from the lab and submitted the infor via fax to attorney he will take it to the US EMbas on Monday. So we are very happy any body know about timeframe from this point. Heard 4-5 days for pink. Has anybody heard wether the embas. will be closed Aug 17 thru the 22nd. I know that don't accept pink on Fridays. Any news would be helpful. But I thought anyone waiting on 2nd DNA would like to know time frame. Little over a week