I am so sorry that it has come to this. My heart goes out to all the families who have children at Casa Quivera. Please know that you are all in my thoughts. Stay strong. Aimee

Kevin, your last comment on the previous thread was eloquent. I had tried to respond to you, but was rejected...possibly because of this late breaking news. I sent it via "contact us" I still don't know if it merits your passing it on to comments...It is indeed a confusing situation.

BUT to the matter at hand: One thing I have learned in dealing wiht Third world people everywhere. When they deal wiht American, they use process as a weapon. We refuse to stop adopting babies in the process that everyone deems problematic. So they are doing what beaurocrats do: examining the paperwork. Unfortunately, this process can take up to 6 months to come to the first "fact finding" audience...regardless of the legality of the paperwork of the children involved. I am sorry for the parents involved.

Last year I was involved with the disolution of another home...due to financial inconsistencies the donaors stopped giving, and the home threw the children to the courts...Some of them went to the same home that many of these children will probably go to...where the founder has declared himself an enemy to adoptions. That means these children will be relegated to an institution for the rest of their lives instead of a family who would love and cherish them. It is not how it should be!!!

But the actions of bad people, allowed and passively accepted by good people have brought us to this point. The ultimate losers are the children.

Did I tell you that I am convinced that there is no situation so bad that UN involvement will not make it worse? Check out genocide rates pre and pst UN inception.

Thanks again for hosting this foprum, Kevin. Indeed, you rock.

Sadly, As it usually goes the children are once again the victims of political postering. I'm curious why no other human rights groups have not championed the cause in Guatemala. If this were Africa, We'd have Bono and Oprah beating down the doors of the USE. As it goes, Woman will continue to be abused and eliminated with the perpetraitors receiving a little more than a slap on the wrist. Children will contiue to be the tool to make money in this very poor country. The news media only cares to print stories hwere US greedy Americans will do anything to adopt children. I really feel helpless at times like this. I do lose faith in the world, well less than I already have. I guess what keeps me going is that beautiful little girl that is waiting for us to come pick her up and take her home. It also helps me to know that we have people like Kevin, Kelly, and Marie who dedicate themselves to this cause. They don't do it for publicity or money, just love. I feel that we, Guatadopt, are one of the few groups that do not have alteior motives in Guatemalan adoptons. Just about everyone else has something to gain. I just wish there was something more we could do to change this situation. Another sad day for me! Erik

My heart goes out to the families waiting to bring these babies home and the babies who are being caught in all of this mess!

My thought are with you!
Erin

My heart just breaks. I pray for all the CS families that you get to bring your babies home, and that your babies are well taken-care of in the meantime. I'm just so sorry... :(

I just wanted to post all of my support and prayers to the children and adoptive parents through this horrible mess. I pray that there is a speedy, child-centered solution to this quickly. Kris

This is so sad. Again, the children suffer. My prayers go out to all of the families involved.

Lisa

This is so heartbreaking, my heart goes out to all of the familes with children at CQ, I will be praying for your family and your children to come home soon.
It is so sad what politics can do to the life of a child. So many of these children will never find a home, all because of adults who can't agree on anything and they are the one's acting like children. Guatemala will never dig themselves out of the poverty hole if they keep holding back their women and children. How sad.

this is truly horrible news. i have a son from cq and i am confused as to what is going on. where are cliff and sandra and are they communicating with the families? i am praying for all of these children and for the families who are waiting - my own wait was torturous - i cannot imagine dealing with this situation. be strong and let's hope/pray/fight that this will work out for the best of the children -

peace

Our prayers are with the families and children involved. Thank you, Kevin for keeping us up to date.

So what are the parents supposed to do whose children were in this home? Are they just supposed to give up? I don't think so!! My daughter is in a foster home right now so I thank God that I am not one of these parents. But I just have to say that we serve a POWERFUL and loving God. Who loves the orphans and tells us to take care of them. We serve a God who parted the Red Sea, rose Lazarus from the dead, gave sight to a blind man, made Peter walk on water! If he can do all theses things and so much more he can help those children come home to their forever families! Hopefully they will find the correct paperwork that they need on some of these children or all of them and maybe there adoptions will still continue. I know I am rambling but I try to be an optimist in situations like this. When I read about this yesterday I got up from my desk and got on my knees and prayed for you parents who are worried about your children. I will continue to pray for you daily. Prayer works and miracles happen everyday. My heart goes out to all of the children affected by this.

Erik, I so agree and further ask, is there something we (collectively) can do to help? My daughter was not at Casa Quivira but several of her friends were. I had the pleasure of meeting Clifford and his wife last summer.
Looking at the smaller picture of just those children currently being moved from Casa Quivira to who knows where, is there anything we can do to help?

I’m writing this with a heavy, heavy heart. I have followed the events of the last few days anxiously, expecting some understanding from those with in the adoption community and deeply saddened to see some of the critical remarks on this and other boards. I am thankful for those of you who have expressed empathy and support,especially Kevin, who did an excellent job in the last thread of explaining the myriad of issues. However, I feel like others have been critical and divisive.

Casa Quivira has an excellent reputation. The initial reports were inflammatory and undocumented. Those of us in the CQ family have been informed, and have no reason to doubt that 1) the raid may have been initiated as a result of reports of the hogar being “filthy” and a “hellhole.” In an effort to prevent the children from being removed from the home, we quickly networked to get the word out on the immaculate condition of this home. This is why the condition and care are being oft repeated by those of us with first hand experience. 2) We have been told that when the police arrived, the attorneys and staff showed them all of the documentation for the licensing of the home, and the relinquishment of the children. This was not examined but was confiscated, leaving a shaken staff with many unanswered questions and now they lack possession of the paperwork they need to prove their innocence.

The media, operating on mysterious reports, says what ever they want. The staff on call has not been allowed to leave, and no one has been allowed to come in. I can only imagine the terror they are feeling right now. But I have witnessed the love and care they give the children in their care, so I am sure the babies are still in good hands, as long as they aren’t removed. Now there are reports they will be removed. To where? How will it be documented? CQ has a waiting list of parents, I am sure there are 40+ families out there right now who are frantic with worry. The safety of these babies should be priority number one right now, and they are in the best hands right where they are.

International adoption has its critics. It is understandable why. I have a friend who had to bring $10,000 in cash to Russia for her adoption. These aren’t things Americans are comfortable with. But when dealing with foreign nations, one can’t expect American practices to be applied. Casa Quivira was completely honest and ethical in our dealings with them. The problems that exist with Guatemalan adoptions, and International adoption, are many. I think everyone of us who has adopted has grappled with some serious questions on the ethics of the process in our own way. However, there has been no EVIDENCE presented to show CQ has done anything illegal or untoward. There is a long history of the Guatemalan government being less than supportive of the adoptions, yet some posters the past few days seem to prefer to accept the news reports without question.

In casting these aspersions on CQ, I feel some of you call into question the legitimacy of my adoption, and those of all my CQ family. It is truly disappointing to find lackluster support in the forums we could count on for understanding and empathy.

My heart goes out to all of those with children in CQ. I'm sure very few people (if any) enter into arrangements they know are unethical. We entered into this process in good faith and often things happen along the way that we had no inkling of at the beginning.
About the issue of "why didn't you just donate the $40,000 to charity?": I am SO sick of being held to higher standards than everyone else on the planet who has biological children. Why didn't THEY forego having biological children and donate the money that they would have spent on raising their children to charity, either here in the US or abroad?!! I would argue that NO ONE has children for humanitarian reasons, biological or adopted. We all want children for the same reason--because we want them!
Instead of attacking adoptive parents, wouldn't it be more productive to work together toward making adoption more ethical?

Of course, in replying to the old thread, I see now a lot of warm wishes! Perhaps I should have just waited and kept my faith in our little community. I truly hope I didn't offend.

Oh, god. I'm so sorry for the CQ families in waiting, and hope this is resolved quickly and in a way that is not harmful to the children. Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, it will be discovered that CQ is operating legally and they will be allowed to resume their normal routine.
I'm also sorry to see so many negative posts questioning the motives and ethics of the PAPs involved (not just here but on other forums also). I agree with PM that CQ families need our support right now.

Due to my own personal experience as an adoptive parent of a little boy who was in CQ's care, I find it VERY hard to believe that Casa Quivira is involved in anything illegal or unethical. I have the utmost respect for the work they do.

I have personally met Cliff, Linda, CQ's doctor, the US Coordinator and other members of CQ's dedicated staff. I am so sorry that this horrible situation has occurred. The staff, children and parents are all in my thoughts and prayers. How sad (and wrong) that those who are doing good for the children of Guatemala are attacked and deemed guilty until proven innocent.

I feel sympathy for the children who will be victimized by this and sad for the parents who want to adopt. But I also see so much denial!

Why is everyone so certain that all is well at CQ and that none of those children are being trafficked? Have any of you read the accounts of women being paid to get pregnant? Have you heard of the mothers who changed their minds at birth but were told that unless they paid the finders back for the cash they gave them that they no longer have, they cannot get their baby back? There are stories of finders threatening mother's families. These finders are not all nice social workers. These women are intimidated. Why do you suppose the UN and State Department are so anti-adoption about Guatemala?

Plenty of adoptions ARE legitimate but that doesnt mean it is reasonable to disrgard widespread evidence of problems and insist theres no way CQ might be handling suspect relinquishments. I am astonished that Parents say" I saw the place so I KNOW my baby's adoption was fine". CQ would not be informing parents of anything shady! It will take investigation to see if the CQ children are being properly placed there. Parents would be the last to know!

If Susan Luarca is more concerned about the kids than her large fees, why is having court oversight of relinquishments a problem for her? This is a turf war over profits as much as a political one over branches of government. The lawyers universally have fought any changes that will remove this process from their control.

Once again, the blame is being deflected from where it belongs- on those refusing to reform the process because they are getting rich off it to whistleblowers and law enforcement. The State Department has been issuing warnings. Why do you suppose they are concerned? Are they issuing warnings in Thailand? China? Korea?

If those kids lives are ruined and 45 parents devastated it is because the lawyers and agencies refuse to allow anyone to reform adoption, not because "anti-adoption" forces have pulled a political stunt.

Statement from Casa Quivira
August 14, 2007

We are shocked at the illegal police raid on Casa Quivira, and are working to make sure that the 45 children in our care continue to receive the high quality, professional care that we work so hard to provide.

Guatemalan authorities have accused Casa Quivira of operating an “illegal” orphanage (casa cuna clandestina), but we have worked under a cabinet-level approval since 1994 to legally and transparently process adoptions and to provide care for children while the adoptions are in progress. The children stay in a modern, clean facility where they are attended by experienced nannies and receive regular visits from pediatricians and a staff nurse is always on duty. Care ratio of nanny to baby is very low and each child is properly stimulated and monitored for growth as well as psycho-motor development. The children at Casa Quivira receive better care than the children in the surrounding communities, so we have also been working to build an out patient pediatric clinic that would provide basic medical care and vaccinations to children in need. We have built a strong reputation in our local community and enjoy the support of many of the families around the world that we have helped, which makes these accusations all the more painful for everyone involved with Casa Quivira.

I recognize that the US government has concerns about the way adoptions are processed by Guatemalan authorities. The reason so many parents come to us is because of our high standards for ensuring that every child’s adoption is handled in way that is fair and legal for the birthmother as well as the adoptive parents. From the time that birthmothers place their children in our care until the case is approved by the Guatemalan government birth mothers have several opportunities to change their minds. The birth mothers and the infants are required to twice undergo DNA testing at a facility approved by the US embassy. The actual sample testing is performed at a laboratory in the United States. All of this is to ensure that an infant is actually the birthmother’s child. The birthmother also undergoes a rigorous interview through the Family Court of Guatemala and the entire case is reviewed by the Solicitor General's Office (Procuraduria General de la Nacion) of Guatemala for final approval.

We maintain extensive files on each of the children in our care. All of the children’s documents, official certificates from the Guatemalan government regarding their adoptions, as well as the documents certifying Casa Quivira’s operations have been confiscated by the authorities. They have also taken the children’s medical records, which our doctors and nurses need to provide care to the children.

I do not know why the Guatemalan police decided to raid Casa Quivira and to malign our work and our staff. I do not understand why they fail to recognize or even mention that the statutes of Casa Quivira are duly recognized and approved by the Ministry of Government (Ministerio de Gobernacion) of Guatemala. All of us are deeply hurt by the accusations that we would in any way mistreat or neglect any of these children. We work hard to provide the very best care possible. We believe that our adoptions are conducted in a way that positively supports the people of Guatemala. We will continue to do our best to make sure that the children are well cared for and that their adoptions can be completed with as little delay as possible.

Attached you will find a copy of the Acuerdo Ministerial dated 27 December 1994 which was later published in the Diario Oficial, (the official Government Record of Guatemala) This Acuerdo approves the statutes of the institution of which Casa Quivira is a project to process adoptions and provide care for children while in adoption. This is a Government Ministry (Minsterio de Gobernacion) level approval and together with the statutes is furthermore registered with the Attorney General’s Office, the National Police and the Municipality of Antigua.

Clifford Phillips
Casa Quivira

-------------------------

(I have not posted the copy of the Acuerdo Ministerial, as I do not know if this site allows such)

Kevin,

I just read your responses on the previous post and have to say thank you. We're all so lucky to have you speaking out for the children and people of Guatemala.

Lisa

First I want to say that I'm not in favor of totally throwing out the current adoption process in Guatemala and implementing something entirely new and different. I'm an engineer and usually it is better to fix the problems with a design that you know. One of the main problems with the current adoption process is that the people who "find" the biological mothers can do many horrible things without being detected. The attorney or people for example at an orphanage such as CQ may not know that the "finders" are using coercion. I personally do not have a solution for this but I would imagine that there are people who have given it great thought and have ideas on how to modify the current adoption process to greatly reduce this kind of problem.

I'm not accusing CQ of anything. I'm very sorry for all of the parents who are waiting for children from CQ. I myself am waiting to bring a little girl home and I am worried about her. But I do see that there are problems with the current process.

Best, Cheryl

My prayers are with CQ's staff and children and their waiting families. Many thanks to Guatadopt's staff for keeping us posted on all of this. For many of us you are our best link to the issues in Guatemala that are affecting our waiting children each day.
Julie

Sandra,

We are currently using Susanna for our second adoption. Her fees are the same as the other lawyers that we have used. So she is not charigng anything more than the other lawyers would charge.

I personally have no knowledge of CQ and can't speak to it. However, there are problems with regulating homes in Guate. Whether CQ is being unfairly targeted or if there is substance may not ever be known due to the highly political nature of the situation in Guate. However, I would caution everyone that their experience at CQ may have been positive and they can speak with satisfaction, BUT if the home was working in an 'undocumented' fashion then this is a serious problem. Also, everyone needs to remember that there is a 'front stage and back stage' phenomena in life. The 'back stage' of CQ may well be dark and the authorities need to investigate any home that appears to be operating in an unethical manner. The press field day associated with this particular story is ominious. CQ was targeted for a reason, the press has covered it heavily and likely was tipped off in advance, and the politics of this whole thing continue to roll on. As I said in an earlier post, the US owner of this home better beware. The US Marshalls are looking for someone to prosecute and his residency in Florida/US citizenship makes him ripe for charges of visa fraud, etc. One last thought, this story leaves me thinking that the citizenry of Antigua have had enough of the adoption stream--for them to complain (I use to live there) is significant. Antiguenos are powerful people in the country and this is potentially quite significant with wide reaching effects on all Antigua-based homes.

I have 2 beautiful boys from GUatemala whom I know were adopted legally and ethically. We adopted our first through an agency, searched for and met his birthmother, and kept in touch with her. When she found herself in a difficult situation again, she asked us to please adopt the baby she was carrying so her children could be together. There was no coercion, baby stealing, or baby buying involved. Just a shared heartache and a mutual desire to give the birthmom's babies a better life.

My heart goes out to the families in the process of adopting babies from CQ. Whether the charges are valid or baseless, I am so, so sorry.

My concern now is that the adoptions of children who have been home in the US for awhile will be called into question by the general public. I hope our children will not be the victims of cuel remarks about being boought or stolen from their birthmothers.

I see now where the AP is using the headline "Guatemalan Kids Set for Adoption Rescued" on their story. I fear this story will be picked up by newspapers around the country, and the word "Rescued" will stand out.

Is there anything we as a group can to issue our own press release?

One must wonder what is the involvement of the two attorneys in this situation. Perhaps in them lie the truth everyone is seeking not CQ.

I had asked yesterday, and I really do want to know what the average cost of a child from Quivira costs…I wonder if the Government “message sending” is based on price…or ease of target. The government is obviously trying to send a message. I hope folks are not intimidated or embarrassed into not responding to my query.

Kevin, again, I appreciate your helping to facilitate discussion. Truth is a powerful thing. I addressed some of your response to my comment in your previous topic, but was too late in posting. I think some of that discussion is pertinent to this track, and so I hope you will indulge me, as I repost an edited version.

In your comment, you had used these phrases:

“easily sensationalized Guatemalan adoption process”…”there is way too much corruption and reform is direly needed”…”[this forum has]a group of people who believe that adoptions should not cost as much as they do…”

All of the above point to the same thing: there is a real problem in Guatemala adoptions. I agree wholeheartedly!

But why do you think Adoptions should not cost as much as they do? At present it is market driven. Are you more of a socialist than a capitalist? The fact is American couples can, and will, pay high prices for children.

If you believe regulation is needed, what would you base that regulation on? I personally feel that High prices bring corruption. If we were talking about cars, or computers, I would be happy to allow the market forces to regulate production, and distribution. Maybe even with birds, and pet dogs, and rare animals from the rainforest. BUT when we talk about little human beings, and a life long relationship, I believe there is something sacred going on. This should not be market driven. Whatever the reason (whether you and your wife’s desire for a family, or what some would call a ministry: e.g. a family who had children, but felt they could offer a little one a better life than he/she presently had).

Kind of like marriage. When you determined to not live alone, you did not go to an agency and compare prices and delivery times, and look at photos before you chose your wife. And you probably got married in a church, as well as receiving a civil OK to the marriage. Civil and sacred norms. The idea of being market driven, with the prettiest girls going to the highest bidders starts to sound illicit, and defeats the general idea of marriage. That marriage is a transaction between two adults. How much more should we consider the joining of a baby to a couple a sacred and important process…free from market forces.

Both Wendy Berger and Josefina Arellano have suggested a cap on prices for about 3 years…vigorously opposed by people like Susana Luarca. If they had succeeded in gaining that one aspect of regulation, I bet the raid we write about and the lynchings we have heard about would not have happened.

Let me clarify: it is not anti free market per se. I for one feel that the high prices have generated the majority of the problems by bringing in people who have no other motive than money ( the love of which is the root of all sorts of evil…a wise man once said) These are mixed in with the folks who started agencies and homes with noble as well as economic incentives. I believe the temptation by these more honorable folks to keep up with “what the market will bear” rather than simply covering their costs in their budgets have led them to difficult situations. The fact that it was an American owned home is HUGE. Guatemalans comment when there is a drug raid or other “legal” action by police that someone set up someone else. It is never thought to be a pure justice motivated operation. And usually the least guilty are the ones who get “caught”. I feel bad for Clifford, but the phrase “swimming with sharks” comes to mind. Again, maybe Clifford can tell us the average price that the families who are waiting will end up paying. ( to all involved in this process, please don’t insult people by shading transactions that bare part of it all). I am sure he knows how much per month care payments are as well.

That was my rant on profiteering. But they cannot profit if there is not a willing clientele. We need to consider complicity.

Kevin, you said:

“that has nothing to do with the fact that there are good people who only want to live the most natural life in the world – as a parent!”

This argument reminds me of Americans, good people who want to live well too…with SUV’s and air conditioning and consuming 40% of the world’s resources by 5% of the world’s population. There are people that challenge that being OK by saying that that causes poorer people to stay poor. And if it was only that I would probably not say anything.

But when you deal with mafia types and pay their profiteering prices to satisfy that most natural desire, there is something gravely wrong. Kind of like buying a TV really cheaply from a sleazy guy on the corner who says it fell off a truck. You don’t agree in general with theft, but can’t resist the opportunity. You, Kevin, have a good relationship with the family that gave you your child. I applaud that. Again, I really like you from my reading this site! BUT many children adopted to people just like you come from very dubious situations. I am personally aware of an attorney who impregnated women for adoption ( after all…market forces work best when one can control all aspects of production) I know of upstanding agencies, whose personnel, under production pressure, faked letters FROM birth moms and threw away letters TO birth moms. I know women who were promised large sums of money for their children, then told to wait til the process was complete, and then bilked, and threatened when they complained. People speak of interactions with the birth mom, a sweet Guatemalan woman or girl. But it also might be good to extend the DNA tests to verify the women presented to families as the birth mom. How do you know you are talking to the birth mom, if the U.S. Embassy has required the DNA test prior to their interview? AND how much money would it take to corrupt the present DNA testing, and slide in a fake mom for the interview? I bet someone reading this forum knows exactly how much.

If you feel this degrades the good and kind hearted parents that are involved…I am only describing it; I did not create the scenario. Evil triumphs when good people do nothing. It flourishes when good people choose to be ignorant. It really takes off when good people fund it! Good people are being held hostage by their most noble part: their love for that little baby. Once they see that child, anything that might stop that child from coming home is naturally considered bad. Anything that aids in that child’s arrival is good. These Shysters in Guatemala know that quite well. Have you heard of parents being told that there is a delay, but with a certain amount of money, it will be expedited? I have.

Then there is the point you alluded to that it doesn’t have to be charitable. I appreciate your honesty in motive, Kevin, but challenge you that most adoption sites make the connection between adoption and charity. It did not originate with me! The U.S. Government even gives a tax CREDIT for adoption expense. This is reserved for actions deemed socially good, and not merely a desire for something lacking in one’s life. You two are infertile. I was born extremely myopic. But my Lasik surgery did not earn me a tax CREDIT. Quivira receives aid from a Mennonite group who avowedly support needy children’s home, making my question about how much Quivira charges adoptive parents more poignant. My understanding from the articles is that all the children are there via relinquishment…which means that there is a couple waiting and paying for each child. I did not get to see their website before it closed. Is Quivira a charity? They must be, as Clifford said they are doing nothing illegal, and a “for profit” entity receiving donations from a 501c3 charity is against U.S. tax laws.

You, Kevin, have obviously entered into the full spirit of charity. You speak of self interest, but betray your true heart by your actions!

Again, I say emphatically: adoption is the highest good that can be done by one person to another. And every child adopted by a caring, loving, American couple, regardless of birth or business circumstances, is blessed to be with that family.

Steve, I’ll do my best to respond but I ma quite under the weather and it has been along day.

1.) Why should adoptions cost less? Am I a socialist? Well, I definitely do have some socialist tendencies. I do not believe in a profit motive for things like education, health care, ministry, etc. But really, my comment was being humorous as much as anything. The fact is that money corrupts if left unchecked and that has happened in adoption. Americans can and will pay, but on the same note some families who would be wonderful parents just can’t afford it. But don’t try to twist my words because in a country like Guatemala, I think a private system is the only way that it can function and I do believe that attorneys have the right to earn a good living.

2.) I honestly don’t get some of what you are saying about free market forces, marriage, etc. As I said, I think the joining of a baby should be free from market forces. And the fact is that people pay the same prices for adoption almost no matter what. So I don’t think anyone is paying more to get the prettiest wife. But once again, I don’t get what you are at.

3.) I am not aware of any proposed caps on what adoptions can cost. Share with me where you got that. I know what the Valladeras, Ortega, and Berger laws proposed. I also know that ADA and others have attempted to improve the civil code that regulates adoptions.

4.) Corruption – yes it exists. My opinion is that all corruption is not the same and in judging Guatemala we must consider social, economic, and political realities in the country. We cannot throw all bad things into one bucket. Paying a birthmom is not the same as kidnapping a child. I am not condoning either and have written extensively on this in our archives. So I won’t do it again. Are we complicit – yes. I have MANY times written that ultimately it is our dollars feeding the corruption. I have many ideas on how Guatemala could and should improve its system. The key question is really ‘at what degree of corruption should the system be shut down?”. It is a very fair question to ask and debate. Based on my experience, things have gotten much worse in the last 12-18 months. As cases took longer it opened up opps for more corruption. And the longer that both governments didn’t enforce the rules the more people felt they could get in. But I consider the US Government to be one of the most corrupt entities on earth and yet I don’t cal for it to be dismantled. Though I’d love to see it reformed.
5.) Don’t blame me for what some sites do in their marketing. I am a marketing Director by trade and I NEVER use misleading or dishonest communications. The fact is that there are more parents looking to adopt infants than there are infants available to adopt. Every country with a functioning system has a wait. So, on the macro scale, yes adoption has a humanitarian aspect to it. But on the micro scale, it does not. If I had not adopted my kids someone else would have. But if no one adopted kids would suffer. The institution is noble, the individual family is not.
6.) Tax credits and charities – you lost me again. The US gov gives you a tax credit for whatever reason they chose. I’m happy they did – better PAPs than Wal Mart or GE! So what? The socialist in me says that everyone should have free health care so if it was up to me, your surgery would free. As would the infertility treatments my wife and I endured. But I still fail to see your point. The government decides that there are certain things that it wants to support through tax benefits and adoption is one of them. Whether or not your eye surgery is a credit has no bearing on adoption.
7.) The term non-profit and 501c3 rules are not solely for humanitarian organizations. And much of the laws having to do with them have to do with what you do with the income that comes in. Whether or not adoption agencies and hogars should qualify I do not know.

So Steve, that’s the best I can do. If you have some more direct, clearer questions maybe I can answer better. Also realize that I am not the voice of everyone in the adoption community. I am not al knowing. I’m just one dude with a blog. I would like for you to explain what the heck you mean by this “You, Kevin, have obviously entered into the full spirit of charity. You speak of self interest, but betray your true heart by your actions!”. I don’t get where it is coming from nor do I believe it accurate.

And lastly, I spent way too long on-line last night when I shouldn’t have (I have the flu right now). I won’t be putting myself through it again tonight. I ask everyone, friend, foe, or both, to realize that Kelly and I have families, careers, etc. Trying to respond to all posts, especially when they are long, is quite time consuming and we can’t always do it. And tonight, I’m getting to bed early I hope!

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Okay, Steve, you seem dying to know so I'll tell you about pricing. I have twin boys at CQ and before signing on with them we did our leg-work and then some. The cost of completing an adoption with CQ's is on the upper end (but not the highest) of the spectrum of Guat adoption. There is reason for some of the extra costs, however. Just to name a few:
Low nanny to child ratio
The nannies to nothing but care for babies (no laundry, fixing bottles, washing bottles etc)
A nurse is on staff 24/7
A doctor visits daily
They are given vaccinations by the same companies as the ones we give in the US
They are fed Similac Formulas (no powdered milk here)
Illnesses are treated promptly
Physician Specialists are sought whenever there is a suspicion of a problem.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. So am I paying a paying CQ more than the average...I think so, but what I'm paying for (ie. care of child) is not the same.

I am NOT judging other people for decisions they made, nor do I think that CQ is far superior to using another agency/hogar, and nor do I think that you HAVE to pay $$$ to get great care. It is a very personal and difficult decision.

My Grandmother always told me that nothing goes over the devils back that does not come under and bucle twice as hard. This saying is true of the evil being perpetrated against the children of Guatemala. The guilty will surely face judgement now or later, but be assured they will face it.
The fact that Americans can and will pay the price for one of God's litle one's is encouraging and fulfills a commandment that was given to us, to care for the orphans and widows. Without this willingness in one's heart why would you want to add another finacial expense to your household? The simple truth is you would not!
Time is nearing when Guatemala will come under the the UN's finacial control and the children of Guatemala will be unreachable, such as the case with Honduras and El Salvador. The children of Guatemala that have been adopted and brought to America will hopefully one day be a strong voice of influence that can help their native country.
Why do some point their finger and do nothing and others offer their hand? Because love and compassion begins with a servants heart. I believe that the children of CQ will come home and that the truth will come forth. God's words do not return void to HIM. Keep praying.

Trusting in Him,

Paul and Iris

Thanks Kevin, for your info and insight. Get some sleep. Hope you feel better!

Kevin and all, THANKS for all you do! This site is wonderful and I for one appreciate everything and all the time you donate! Please take care of yourself and get to feeling better Kevin!

i'm getting conflicting info. does anyone actual know if the babies have been removed from CQ or are they still there?
if they have been removed, do i have any hope of getting my baby girl or are the babies going to be lost in the system, despite my paper work?
randi

just got an update on a few good things. first the babies are still at CQ, though under government rule. basically the gov't told all the employees you now work for us.

secondly, finally a positive article was written by the BBC defending CQ & putting a positive spin on their reputation & practices, so check it out.
randi

Kevin;

I will allow for your flu and accept that for the reason you are confused. AND I will accept the fact that people have corrupted the laws all over the place, especially in 501c3 cases to help themselves to undeserved tax breaks.

That has been my point. People are doing just what you described here and now. Your reference that the government giving this status for "whatever reason they deem" makes you pretty much an anarchist, rather than a socialist! [joke]

I do not see the argument.

Either we have rules, or we don't.

But you numbered your points...let me address them...poorly, but the best I can do as I too have other responsibilities

1) I chalk this to fever, as you state money corrupts and is fine.

2 yOU SAY: "the fact is that people pay the same prices for adoption almost no matter what."

THAT IS MARKET DRIVEN PRICING!

And the ugly or unsold product go to the bargain stores...or charitable homes.

3) ok, ENLIGHTEN ME: were there any proposals that you deemed worthwhile? There are newspaper articles to back up my statement...If you want to play the "it depends on what IT means" type of hair splitting defense, I will not cooperate.

4)I agree with everything until you get to the U.S gov. I think you are using the best institution in the world...in the history of the world...to justify sleasy behavior elswhere, and that is not accurate, and not fair. We have made HUGE foreign policy mistakes...but almost always complicitly rather than overtly...which is my point in this current debate. So, given your statements here in point 4..why are you doing anything but calling for the end to this corrupt process? Shades of grey? Sorry, it's too dark for me to see them.

5) I was not blaming you for those sites...I was referring to them to defend myself from your suggestion that I was being unfair to connect those dots.

6) Please clarify: why do you think the Government determines some things worth Tax Credits? I am unclear about your understanding, not the Government's intentions. Why do you think the Government does it?

7) you say you do not know, but what do you think? Should non-profits be for endeavors that are mainly self interest and lucrative? It seems you are suggesting that is within the realm of reason. But NON-PROFIT as nomenclature suggests otherwise.

My direct clear question remains unanswered: what are the actual costs at Q?

It sounds like Krafmatic has been an intelligent shopper, and has chosen wisely. But all of what was mentioned does not address the situatioon of the mother, and the ethics of human trafficking. Good care of the product is good business, and so is consistent with humanitarian...human rights...issues. I agree that the better homnes use the higher costs to deliver a beautiful baby to the waiting clients. But control of the product's origin is less correlative. Please, Krafmatic...respect our ability to run the numbers, and just simply tell us what the actual costs were.

Here is the BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6947039.stm

It's not entirely positive, but it gives Clifford Phillips's point of view.

A judge apparently rules Tuesday that the children will remain at CQ while their legal status is determined. Great news!

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/15/america/LA-GEN-Guatemala-Adoptions.php

Steve, in reponse.

1.) I did not say that the fact that money corrupts is fine. I just stated it to be the case.
2.) There is an overall market driven scheme that has caused adoption costs to rise. This has been primarily due to the buscadoras. As more countries close, more people go to where an adoption is viable and there are people there to take advantage of that fact. What I said was that on the micro level there is not. People are not paying more for a child with curly hair or something like that – thank god!
3.) I think that there have been merits in many of the proposals but no, none of them fit what I think needs to be done. Of course, I believe that the main thing needed is ENFORCEMENT of current laws by both countries.
4.) I don’t concur with you. I think that we Americans are incredibly lucky but I think our fortune has been achieved largely by the suffering of others. If you look at Guatemalan history, you can see what I mean. Why don’t I call for a shutdown? Because I believe that by and large the system functions as it should. There is corruption and too much of it. But I think it can be removed and immediately curtailed through simple enforcement measure. The 2nd DNA is a great example.
5.) I think you took my statement on humanitarianism too personally. I’ve experienced what you said from strangers, media, etc so I know where it came from. I am just always quick to point the reality.
6.) I have no idea. Never ask me to explain the actions of governments. I’m too rational for that :-)
7.) Not to sound bad, but I haven’t given any thought to what should constitute a non-profit and what should not and frankly I don’t have an interest in doing so.

Hope that answers you. Lastly, I don’t know what CQ charged.

Kevin
Guatadopt

Steve,

I hope that you are just using the term to make a point, but I find your constant references to our children as "products" incredibly inaccurate and highly offensive. I also take offense to your suggestion that we pay higher prices for a cuter child.
If we as adoptive parents choose a higher-cost adoption process, it is because we believe that the extra money is either going to ensure a more ethical process or better care for the child during the process. It is very wrong of you to correlate better care with a "higher quality product", or a cuter child. Everyone wants their child to be cared for with plenty of love, attention, medical care, and nutrition. All this care costs money, and we don't mind shelling it out for our babies' sake. Beleive it or not, all the extra checks and paperwork involved in insuring an ethical adoption process also cost money! Again, we agree to pay for the costs of paperwork, DNA testing, etc because we honestly want the adoption to be legal and ethical. We are not buying a baby, but paying fees for the adoption process. There's a HUGE difference. It would not be such a stretch to call adoption services a product, but to call our children a product is waaaay off base.
So PLEASE, stop calling our children "products". And PLEASE get over this obsession with the cost of adoption. We all know the agencies and lawyers are making money from our adoptions. Adoption is a difficult and time-consuming career, at least it is when done by-the-book ethically and legally. I don't mind that honest adoption providers make a good living, really I don't. I just want the dishonest ones eliminated from practice, and I believe the current laws and regulations, which are largely unenforced, could be used to eliminate them. Eliminating the practice of adoption is not a solution.

The US government is "the best institution in the world...in the history of the world" ? "We have made HUGE foreign policy mistakes...but almost always complicitly rather than overtly"

Are you kidding me? Please, please brush up on your history. The US government knowingly supports dictators all over the world when it serves its business and military interests. And since we are speaking about Guatemala at the moment, the most striking example is the 1954 CIA-sponsored coup of a democratically elected president.