I know there are MANY MANY people working on behalf of these childrens and are hitting road blocks obviously and red tape. It's horrifying. I cannot understand why there isn't someone who can just some in and say these are appalling conditions and these children are going to get sick and possible die from the lack of care they are receiving at the governments hands. I know that there are people from all over trying to help these people and children and I just pray that they get a breakthrough. The government needs to think of the children first, buaracracy second (sorry for spelling). Is this a glimpse at whats to come if adoptions are halted in Guatemala? Is the kind of care all of the orphaned children will receive if that happens?

Kelly

What can we (this forum) those of us to have adopted and are adopting from Guatemala, do to help?
RIGHT now
THESE children
NOW time
I am ready and willing to help (just not thinking clearly enough to be creative).

Oh, this is so SAD!! These children are in my prayers! As are all of those adopting children from CQ!! I pray that someone is allowed to intervene and help these innocent children, they don't deserve to be caught up in this! May God Bless them all!!

This is an outrage!! I pray for everyone involved!! What can we do to help?

Since this story broke, there been so many comments from people on the threads about the evils of adoptions, and how all adoptions are corrupt. So where are your comments now? How do you rebuttal to children that are so sick, that they need a court order to go to the hospital? Of course there is corruption in everything, and it needs to be fix. But what has been fixed by raiding this hogar? Could this have been fixed another way, instead of making these poor children sick?

Does anyone know what we can do to help these children? Please tell us suggestions and we will try to do it!
Lizzie

I'm so outraged by all of this - and feel so helpless as well. What can I do to help?

My son Edwin was adopted from Casa Quivira in May 2000. He was 19 months old when he came home, and the care he got there was so fantastic.

These poor children - I don't know what else to say

Is it at all rationale to contact the World Health Organization? What about World Vision? The leading presidential condidate, Colon, pledges better health care. Would he be someone to get involved. I'm only asking questions, because I would love to help, but again, am unsure how.

this is all polictical.... where is bush now.

This is unbelievable that politics can actually stand in front of the welfare of innocent children. We are waiting to hear we are out of PGN and planning to pick up our son and what a scary time this is.
Reading this post literally took my breath away, I pray for these children and thier well being. I hope and pray for a resolution to this incredible act against humanity, and the pure innocence of these children to be spared of such insanity on the behalf of this ugly world of politics. Please remember these children in your prayers.
Dear God,
Please send your Angels to protect these children.
Karen P.

I second the "Where is the ADA in all of this?" question. Susana, are you out there????

Was Shawn talking to me? Some of my comments have been repeated back in an extreme way that I hardly recognise, but I feel she deserves a response.

But first, regarding a few previous jabs at my character. I have been travelling, and unable to respond to those "challenges". I guess I ruffled a few feathers. I had written earlier to Kevin, but left it out of my comment: "Go ahead and shoot the messenger if it makes you feel better", and a few seem like they would have if given the chance. This is a very emotionally charged issue. It should be. The bonds of children and parents ought to be the strongest in nature. Maybe more so as the parents are fighting for the right to care for that child. But Adoptions starts at a point where the natural order has been disrupted. That is important to remember. It is a mixed up world. Adoptions are a good response to a dysfunctional situation, and occur within that environment. It is messy, inevitably.

I am not a newby, and if I am a wannabe, its that I wannabe living exactly where I live, doing exactly what I am doing, and with whom I want to be doing it. I would consider myself in heaven...if only I didn't hear the cry of the neglected and abandoned. I can't help it. I care about your children as well as my own. And I care about my neighbors as well as myself. My participation in this forum has been to try...obviously not well....to ask people to consider the next children in the process. Or the others who cannot even make it into the process. I'm not asking for huge sacrifices, just some concern for the neighbor, as it were.

This tragic state of affairs is the result of forces moving clearly and steadily. It is no surprise to people who are not "newbies" to what has been happening in Guatemala. I think Kelly said it well in that link that went to her June comment: the parents have been focusing on each child as an individual case, and the "unicef contingent" has been focusing on the macro situation. That has allowed Kelly to say " Yes, there are some serious abuses in Guatemala THAT MUST BE STOPPED." Yet...What has been done by any of the adoption agencies and Parent's groups about that corruption? Parents have acknowledged Corruption in a macro sense, but have not been willing to accept the complicity inherent in their participation in that process. They have been just hoping to get that precious child home without too much delay or difficulty.

Think about a scenario if these kind of allegations had been made in the U.S. If you could imagine the crazy idea of thousands of American babies being relinquished to couples in other countries, and allegations of child stealing and bribery was an open secret in the process, to the point where the other countries imposed controls indicating their complete distrust of our "legal" processes. Our Government would put a moritorium on the activity in a New York Minute. But here, the parts of the Government that feel that responsibility do not have the "legal" power to effect that moritorium. In a way, they have resorted to Governmental vigilantism.

The activities at Casa Quivira have been extreme and unfortunate. But they were becoming inevitible. While folks have been joyfully bringing home children from Guatemala, the clock has been ticking to this point. It has not been hidden.

Kevin, you had said that If there was wrong doing at CQ, that they should be punished. I don't know if there has been. But what about REALLY doing something in the name of the children who are waiting to be adopted there as people have asked? What if the parents who now have their children would be willing to report to the Guatemalan Government about the "inconsistencies" that they did not report during the process, as they understandably did not want to jeopardize their homecoming. What if the adoptive parents really did something about the corruption, by reporting to the U.S. if not Guatemala, the incidences where something seemed wrong. If Adoptive Parents would break rank with the corruption, there might be a completely different response to them by the Guatemalan Government. As of now, adoptive parents sound to the Government exactly like the corrupt forces.(having been fed the Marketing jargon of the corrupt folks who want no Government involvement)

That is little help to the children now. But saying "this will not help this present situation" has been said for the last few years. But why not start doing right right now? Maybe if people had thought about the "next children" earlier, this would not be happening now.

What does Bush have to do with this?
I adopted from CQ twice and found the children well taken care of. The medical attention was outstanding. I took both of my children to a well known PED. doctor in NY and she couldn't believe these children were from a third world country.
As for the childrens home it is spotless.
For those families waiting for children- BE STRONG!
Our thoughts and prayers are with you.

I would like to hear suggestions on what we can do from someone that runs this web site like Kelly or Kevin. One of my thoughts is for each of us to write to major Guatemalan news papers. It seems to me that writing to US government representatives wouldn't work since Guatemalan law and politics isn't under their jurisdiction.

Best, anonymous

Anonymous,

If we had any ideas on how to help we'd be posting. The truth is that we are doing what we can "behind the scenes". I believe that continued press coverage of the children's health can keep pressure on for the children to receive proper care. But to a certain extent we have to let the Guatemalan courts sort out the other aspects of the CQ situation.

Kevin
Guatadopt

Steve,
Can you please explain in further detail why you think a suspension of adoptions would be effective for the children in Guatemala? How is this going to change the course of adoptions to make them better? The only thing I see are children getting older living in foster homes.

Steve,
I thought about the next children and intentionally went with a Hague country and refused to consider Guatemala. I'm glad I did because now I look at all the garbage in print about Guatemala and I know its garbage. There was no transparency. We had to pay unexpected fees to the central authority. Oh, before I forget there was the only agencies who do the most charity will get referrals. Where do you suppose all the money goes anyway? People over and over again say give money so how do you know its even going to the kids? This is the real world. Anyway, there was a huge anti-adoption sentiment there because the press was so kind and thoughtful to stoke the fires about the adoptive mother who murdered her russian child. Even though it's FAR less likely for an AP to abuse their child than a biological parent. I don't know if we'd stayed how much it would have cost but I can say the costs were NOT significantly less than Guatemala and they didn't have private foster care.. hmmm. Tons of kids in institutions, hardly any adoptions, yet high trafficking. Could it be traffickers pay more and that they are NOT using the adoption avenue to get their hands on kids? According to the UN reports and human rights reports that country has horrible trafficking problems and its hague. Romania has a complete shut down on international adoptions and its hague and has horrific trafficking problems. So how did stopping adoptions help the kids? Lets all be honest here. If you wanted a child right now from any country, name the country, and assume you don't care about ethics, are you going to go through this miserable god forsaken time consuming bureacratic process please insert 50 more adjectives or would you avoid all the legal avenues and pay for a kid then transport them discretely across the border? We have people pouring over our borders and there are several open borders in central america and in other countries and everyone has trafficking issues so hmmmm lets try to figure out how they are doing this. I'm thinking of starting a business where I take plaster castings of AP arms and then carry a bunch of silicone arms in for a fee for the reprinting every 15 months. We aren't jumping borders. We are sitting here waiting for the latest and greatest safeguard which hasn't done anything to stop real traffickers. Most families adopting I believe think about the children when they do this. If we didn't adopt do you honestly believe child trafficking would stop? Why is it everyone keeps saying all the mothers in Guatemala are either selling their children or their children are trafficked? Don't you suppose some of the reasons for adoption might be the same around the world? What you propose with the moratorium is a Sophies choice. Why do we always wind up with Sophies choice in the realm of adoption? Why must there be a choice between one child over the other? And this moratorium helps the children from CQ exactly how? By placing all the children in the care of a government who would perform an illegal raid then allow children to get sick to further their political objectives? People say the authorities wouldn't do that. Seems to me there are allegations the authorities have committed murder. So which is it? Good guy, bad guy, or somewhere in between? There have been multiple deaths with current elections. If someone would go that far is allowing some kids to get sick that difficult to imagine?

Steve,

You asked what would happen if parents with their children home would be willing to discuss the coruption and inconsistencies in our case.

I would be happy to.....if I had any. We brought our son home in October of 2006. There was NEVER a point in our procecss where I felt that there was any coruption going on - no inconsistencies - no "gut feeling" that something wasn't right. I'm not naive. I know that these things happen - but they don't happen to everyone. I believe that my adoption was completely above board. I was never asked to pay any more money than what was disclosed at the beginning of our process, nothing happened that was unexpected, and I really believe that our lawyer has a true heart for the children.

As an example, our lawyer was in the states back in June for our agency's annual picnic. They had a brunch just for the Guatemalan families so we could talk to our lawyer. We walked in - she immediately called out our son's name - and remembered who we were. We brought pictures for her to take back to our son's Foster Mom, and she also knew exactly who our son's foster mom was. This was 6 months after bringing him home. She is a wonderful person who also spends a lot of her time and money helping many of the children (both orphans and non-orphans) in her country.

I also know MANY adoptive parents who are now giving back to the beautiful country that gave us our children. I, for one, am involved in a organization that is working with children to make sure that they have the supplies and clothes to go to school. I also plan on doing mission work there next summer.

I love Guatemala and I love my son more than I can ever explain. My heart hurts over everything that is happening. Yes, I do believe that something needs to be done to stop the corruption. But I also know that the Guatemalan government is not prepared to deal with all of these children if they aren't adopted.

I will continue to pray that organizations like yours - and other relief organizations - get down off of their high horse and pay attention to the children.

I would also like to thank you for your participation in this debate.

I read the article and it said that all 9 children are suffering from respitory problems. One of the big threats here for children is the RotoVirus, sorry if I spelled it wrong. It's highly contagious and many children in hogars have it. That may have been why the care givers were so upset about the Government staff playing with one baby and not washing their hands before playing with another. They probably knew some of their children had the virus and by not washing their hands the police were spreading it to other children. If no one has been allowed to come or go, then the virus/if that's what it is, was either already present in the hogar or one of the Government staff brought it in. However, I don't think a baby would need hospitalization if exposure was only a week ago. Usually, I think, the respitatory virus symptoms, show between a few days to a week after being exposed. And then they keep progressing, so if 9 babies were hospitalized, I wonder if they already had the virus and the thing with the RotoVirus is that if it's not deal with, it can be deadly for a baby. If I could walk over there and get in, I would do whatever I could to help, but I can't even chance it, and that's what is so hard for me, becaue I'm in the country but I can't do anything.

I live in Arizona and have no connection to CQ. I do have an adopted son from Guatemala. I called Senator McCain's office today and reported the situation. I have no idea if it will help. I just can't see children suffer when it is adult actions that are in question. Whether legal or a illegal situation, no child should be neglected.

Kevin,

I totally agree. The media could put pressure on the government to provide adequate care for the children but the court system has to sort out whether CQ has done something illegal. Does it make sense for us to send letters to this effect to major Guatemalan news papers/TV and/or to US news papers/TV?

"Protect the Children":

CQ vaccinates their babies against rotavirus. The caregivers are scrupulous about cleanliness because they know that it prevents the spread of any illness between children. This is a common precaution in any good childcare/healthcare setting, and does not imply an awareness of illness in the hogar.

Steve,

Like Adoptnky I would also discuss the corruption and inconsistencies in my case. If there were any. I had my daughter home in 5 1/2 months. I found out during my pick up trip that my daughter had been in the hospital for a few days with an intestinal virus. This must have been quite an expense for my attorney. Was I hit up for more money? No I was not. I did not pay one penny more than my initial fee. I am speaking up because I have been reading your posts and you speak with an air of authority that all adoptions in Guatemala are suspect and the result of extortion and corruption. I am not going to presume to speak for anyone else. I am only one voice, I can only speak for myself, mine was not.

My heart breaks for the babies, the birth mothers, the caretakers and the waiting families of Casa Quivera.

I also am curious as to what abuses adoptive parents should be reporting to the government. Our adoption 4 years ago went exactly as our agency indicated that it would. We were never asked for additional money even though our adoption took almost a year. As far as transparency goes, I don't know how anything could be more transparent. Providing copies of tax returns, employment verification, police background checks, fingerprinting, 5 references, bank account verification, home study, medical information/physicals, blah, blah, blah. Our agency told us what the fees were and that's what they were. Birth mother's have multiple opportunities to change their minds and now two dna tests are required. Yes, Guatemala is more expensive because we have the opportunity to keep our children in a family setting versus an institution. In addition, we also belong to a large Guatemalan support group that meets regularly. We have gotten to know literally hundreds of families and I've never heard anyone say anything about having to pay bribes or extra fees or anything else that was questionable. I fail to see how this system is any more questionable or corrupt than the many private adoptions that take place in the U.S. everyday. If, in fact, Guatemalan women are compensated when they give their babies up for adoption, how is that any different than U.S. college girls hawking their eggs over the internet to the highest bidder or surrogates doing likewise in this country? Couples here are paying a premium for the smartest, best looking women - to either buy their eggs or rent their wombs. Why shouldn't an impovrished Guatemalan woman who becomes pregnant and has no hope of caring for her child be compensated financially for giving that child up for adoption with a licensed adoption attorney??? Even if she intentionally becomes pregnant with the sole purpose of giving the child up for adoption, what is wrong with that either??? Apparently UNICEF thinks Guatemalan women don't deserve the same rights as western women. Private adoptions occur everyday in this country and all parties involved are compensated.

We currently wait for a Chinese daughter - log in date of 12/19/06 - and two children from Guatemala. When we began our chinese adoption, the wait was about one year. It's now expected to go to 2, even 3 years. Have chinese women stopped abandoning their babies??? No. Are the orphanages empty??? No. The more likely scenario is a complex set of reasons that I find totally corrupt, even though China is a "transparent", Hague compliant country. First, as the Olympics approach, adoption referrals have slowed to a crawl. Seems China would like to pretend that it has no pollution, no orphans, no people with AIDS, you get the idea. Second, as westerners have sent more and more money to orphanages and orphanages have hired more and more personnel, these people have no interest in referring children out of the orphanage because that then jeopardizes their jobs so fewer and fewer children are being referred out to families. So here we have a country whose adoption system is somehow "acceptable" to UNICEF yet the culture considers baby girls disposable. So which country is more corrupt? All I know is that adoption from any country isn't for the faint hearted.

In view of the recent events, Association Defenders of Adoption (ADA) published yesterday in Prensa Libre a manifesto to President Oscar Berger, about the illegal and hostile takeover of Casa Quivira, the arrest of two lawyers and the false accusations against the director of Asociacion Modulos Maternales de Protección Infantil. It is at http://www.adaguatemala.org/English/news/

Susana Luarca,
Attorney at Law

Kevin, you posted this yesterday:

"Anonymous,

If we had any ideas on how to help we'd be posting. The truth is that we are doing what we can "behind the scenes". I believe that continued press coverage of the children's health can keep pressure on for the children to receive proper care. But to a certain extent we have to let the Guatemalan courts sort out the other aspects of the CQ situation.

Kevin
Guatadopt"

Is there more that WE can do, then, to HELP the Guatadopt Team?

Thank you,
Kris

Statement from Casa Quivira Families & Friends
August 21, 2007

As a member of a group of families that have adopted from Casa Quivira, we are speaking with one voice to express our unwavering support for the staff and administration of Casa Quivira Children’s Home. As you may be aware, last weekend the Guatemalan National Police raided Casa Quivira Children’s Home located in Antigua, Guatemala. Since that time Guatemalan authorities have denied access to the home by critical members of the staff and interfered with the care of the children who have remained at Casa Quivira. Additionally, the staff and its practices have been wrongfully accused of illegalities by authorities in Guatemala.

We are a large group made up of over 800 families who adopted from Casa Quivira over the past 15 years. We have all visited Casa Quivira, some of us many times. (My husband and I visited twice during our son’s adoption in 2002/2003.) The physical, emotional and medical care at Casa Quivira has always been professional and far exceeded our expectations. Our son was well cared for and loved during his time at Casa Quivira.

We all desired to adopt a child whose adoption circumstances were without question. We all wanted to work with a source in Guatemala whose integrity was rock solid. We all wished for a healthy child to cherish. These are a few of the many reasons we chose to adopt through Casa Quivira.

All of us did our research to investigate Casa Quivira’s reputation before committing to their program of adoption. Many of us have personally seen the agreement from the Ministerio de Gobernacion (Government Ministry) proudly framed and displayed on the wall of the recently remodeled modern facility. All of us have witnessed the nannies and nurses cry when we left Casa Quivira for the last time, their loving care assured our children the best start in life. All of us cried too.

What the Guatemalan authorities have done to Casa Quivira is heinous. It must stop now! The lawyers who have been arrested must be allowed to clear their names yet we are told that formal charges have yet to be filed. Casa Quivira must be allowed to care for the children. The National Police, as well as, the staff from the President’s Office for Social Welfare (SBSP), however, have blocked the hallways. Now, our worst fears are beginning. Nine (9) children have been taken to the hospital. The President's Office for Social Welfare was warned repeatedly that their irresponsible practices would put the children at risk. They refused to allow the special formulas many of the children need to be brought into the home; they did not maintain the infection control practices that are a necessity for a children's home; they did not support the same standards of daily care to prevent respiratory illness from starting; they refused to allow the Casa Quivira doctor to visit the children and assure their continued treatment. This blatant disregard for the careful practices that were in place has resulted in children becoming sick. The whereabouts of some of the children removed due to illness are not even known.

The records and documents of the children that have been removed by the police must be returned to the lawyers who are defending the home. Additional lawyers have been hired just to fight for the return of these children’s documents. How can justice be served? Justice can be served by having this persecution stop now!

We applaud the efforts of Ambassador Guillermo Castillo (Guatemala’s Ambassador to the U.S.) who has valiantly taken our calls and has expressed to many of us his concern about the children being removed from Casa Quivira. He has stated to many of us more than a week ago that he believed this will all be cleared up in a few days. We also recognize that the U.S. Embassy staff in Guatemala is doing everything they can to help families who are suffering this injustice. Two U.S. families have recovered their children, two other U.S. families are in Guatemala now being assisted by the Embassy and seven (7) more are scheduled to arrive in the next few days. The PGN (Procuraduria) has also assisted by recognizing the validity and authenticity of the cases presented to them by Casa Quivira and the U.S. Embassy. The validity and authenticity of the adoption cases need to be considered by the appropriate government body in Guatemala, the PGN. The Ministerio Publico and National Police are not the appropriate agencies to make these determinations.

We are asking for immediate action to help pressure the Guatemalan government to return control of Casa Quivira to the staff of doctors, nurses, nannies and administrators who have always and will continue to have the children of Casa Quivira's best interest at heart. We ask that the SBSP immediately leave Casa Quivira and return the care of the children to Casa Quivira. We ask that the National Police remain to provide the legal oversight.

The Families of Casa Quivira

Hello,

Protect the Children is on the right track, Mari, regarding the risk of spreading infections in a setting such as that of CQ. I am a pediatrician, so I see this all the time. Rotavirus is a gastrointestinal infection that is generally self-resolved, but can cause significant morbidity, and hence the need for immunization. PTC, you may have been thinking of respiratory syncytial virus (RSV); this is a respiratory virus. Bothe can be spread by contact. We don't know, however, if the children at CQ have either.

If the children there are immunized according to the US immunizations schedule (I am not familiar with the practice in Guatemala, or at CQ specifically), they should receive 3 successive vaccines against rotavirus (at 2, 4 and 6 months). Children who have not received the full series are still at risk of developing disease. So they may still come down with the infection, even if they have been immunized initially.

Dear caring parents:

If there were no irregularities, that would be great! If you had none, that is fine, and you are not responsible. But I have heard complaints on forums, and those are the people I was thinking of.

If by your comments you are trying to suggest there are no problems...no further comment

I have not said ALL adoptions are corrupt...but that all are tainted, for sure in the eyes of the Guatemalan populace...due to the percentage of problematic cases. If these were treated by the adoption "world" as distinct from the others...there would be more credibility. But when the scoundrels can get the good people to defend them, the good people get the scoundrel's guilt by association.

My point on a moratorium was not that it would do good for anyone, but that it would be a sure thing were these things occuring in the U.S. Someone else pointed out that the U.S. has a history of bad policies and action in some countries. When we Americans, even wiht the best intentions, come in and critique and say we can do better, it sounds to them like ethnocentrism, and is not well received.

It's a crying shame. I am as sad as anyone on this forum for the children, and the adoptive parents who will not get to meet.

Steve,

Honestly, there were no inconsistencies in my adoption process. Frankly, if I were to report anything to anyone, I would have to report myself. When I was beside myself with anxiety and feeling quite desparate, I actually asked my agency whether there was anything I could do to speed up the process, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. To my agency's incredible credit, I was told, "no," and that even if there were, my agency wouldn't do it for fear of jeopardizing my adoption and any future adoptions.

Is there corruption in the Guatemalan adoption process? I'm sure that in some cases, there is. My case was not one of them, not because I was so ethical and above-board, but because my agency was.

Steve, I don't think we are stating there is no corruption anywhere. We know there are problems in this world. You want a solution? This could stir the pot a little. I believe all agencies should be accreditted by their respective governments and anyone working with someone not accreditted is outside the law. Require DNA testing or COA for all children regardless of country (there are allegations of kidnapping in other countries and no DNA requirement or COA). NO government can prevent NGO's from entering government run orphanages (Romania). A UN medical team or known NGO human rights groups should be able to enter unannounced at any time for inspection. Barring visibility to a government run or any institution supposedly caring for children should immediately set off a UN human rights flag. Enforce the borders (traffickers are border jumping.. theres a Sophies choice for you.. control borders and poor people are forced into the hands of criminals out of desperation to cross over OR don't enforce it and have people driving truckloads of trafficked kids across and or weapons, drugs, etc). Set up a global trafficking taskforce. I can't see there is one for kids. When people are caught they don't get a handslap as I have seen in the press (realizing we can only half trust anything they print) then get hard penalities. Makes sense to me.. destroying lives is a little worse than stealing a vehicle and should be treated accordingly. Those are some ideas.

My "a little worse" comment was sarcasm. I think crimes against people is a lot worse then many crimes which get heavier sentences. I don't understand that. Whats the incentive for criminals to think twice about committing such crimes if they can make a ton of money and get off with a handslap.

Dear adoptnky and jennifer,

The question about whether or not your adoption was corrupt can be easily answered:

Adoption in Guatemala should not cost ANYONE more than 4G tops!

If you paid your agency more, then
you need to think about where else
your money went to.

All agencies KNOW this is the truth but I don't expect them to come forward.

Good news:
There are plenty of families who have adopted and NOT paid the huge agency fees.

(maybe this will help you understand the goverment's position in needing to stop the
buying and selling of THEIR babies)
gaby

I thought I would throw in a bit of a timeout here with some reminders. But before anyone feels targeted, I wanted to say that I have been very impressed with the responses and the level of thought from all sides.

Anyway, I'm sure you have noticed that we post everyone's views as long as there are no personal attacks. Why? Because debate is a healthy way to learn about the issues and talk about solutions even if it doesn't always seem productive. With that in mind, please remember that even if you oppose a particular view...avoid personal attacks or questioning someone's character. I know it sometimes comes out that way whey you are caught in the passion of the argument.

I also understand that it is sometimes too much for those in process and I advise that you take a breather from reading comments that are clearly heading towards adoption policy.

Thanks!

Kelly
guatadopt.com

Gaby,

Do you mean that our entire adoption (agency fee and country fee) shouldn't be more than $4,000? or do you mean that just our agency fee shouldn't be more than $4,000?

If you mean the agency fee, then we were actually very close to that ($5,500)

If you also mean the country fee - I was willing to pay more since my child was in foster care. If he had been here, I would have paid quite a bit in child care.

I'm sorry that you feel that I bought my baby. I brought a child into my home - so I could be a mom - and so that he could be my son.

Blessings!

It is very frustrating that no one ever answers why it is necessary or allowed for finders to scour the countryside soliciting babies and then selling them to attorneys or hogars for referral. Does no one see the problem with this?

Queries re: fees and money and why the cost is over $20,000 are NEVER answered.

To say an adoption was perfectly ethical when someone was paid thousands of dollars to "bring in" a baby to the attorney who offered the most money is refusing to face the ugly truth: That children in Guatemala are being treated by the attorneys and hogars as commodities.

The Guatemalan government is responding (perhaps very poorly) to the absolute refusal of the ADA to permit anyone to interfere with their ability to charge maximum fees and block oversight of the highly suspect relinquishment process.

No one wants to see adoptions in Guatemala shut down but we should all want to see this obscene finders system eliminated and the fees to reflect the legal process work and child care not market prices. The only winners under the current system are the lawyers and finders.

The abuses of this system require repair. The attorneys refusal to allow it have resulted in an ever increasing level of criticism and activism on the part of those who have been unable to eliminate the corruption. It would never have come to this if the attorneys were not so jealously guarding their lucrative monopoly on referrals.

Adoptnky,

At some risk, I will spell it out:

The true cost of a good adoption attorney in Guatemala is 1000$

An honest agency fee is 500$

Foster care fees should include,
childcare,formula,diapers,basic medicine. The actual cost to cover this in Guatemala is 200$/mo
Lots of babies that are waiting on adoptions and become ill, enter the
goverment "free" hospitals and add
no cost to your agency/attorney.

Many babies recieve their immunizations at "free" government clinics.

Remember, in Guatemala ANY document can be (and is) fabricated for a small price.
i.e. immunization/medical records

So my statement about 4G is indeed
total cost as far as agency/country
fees.

I am sorry that it has come to this:
Babies going to the highest bidder.
But none the less it is true and must stop.

God Bless the children of Guatemala

Contessa,

I have several times called for transparency as far as where the money is going. The examples you gave of transparency were your tax returns, your employment verification, ... I just wanted to clarify that you and I are talking about entirely different things. I have been taking about transparency of how my money is spent in Guatemala on a per line item basis. For example, I think I should get a report that says x dollars spent on July 7, 2007 for item 1, y dollars spent on July 10, 2007 for item 2 and so on. I also want to receive copies of all communications. For example, I want a copy of what is sent to PGN and a copy of the PGN receipt saying that they received it. This is how attorneys in the US operate and this would go a long way to reducing corruption.

Kindest Regards, Cheryl

Gaby,

I beg to differ with you on this. Foster care SHOULD cost far more tha $200/month. The foster mom herself SHOULD be paid far more than that without including fomrula, diapers, etc. Life in Guatemala City is not that inexpensive. Do you really believe that a person charged with providing care for an infant should be paid a wage of $2400 per year?

Attorneys charge more than $1,000. They are attorneys with offices and staffs. They are professionals. There is an opportunity cost facot here in their fees since they could practicing other types of law.

Agencies need to charge more than $500 to stay afloat. I want everyone to read this loud and clear - few agency people are rich!

There is no doubt that buscadoras are the ones profiting from adoption and that something needs to be done about that aspect of it. But I also do not think that the figures you stated are realistic.

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Cheryl,
Amen to true transparency in the adoption process. Throughout our adoption, I have had no real idea about the status of our case. I have no idea how much is being paid to the foster mother, who pays medical care or for supplies, the real health of the child we are adopting. My demands for more information are met with "trust us" mentality. So, yes, true transparency would go a long way.

To Gaby -
I don't understand the quote that babies go to the highest bidder. If the fees are XX, and I am not paying more than other people, then how is there a bidding process? Or are you saying that the bidding process goes on prior to the child being referred to the agency and to the parent? Ick.

Kevin,

I stand by the figures I gave.
They are a true reflection of expences IN country.

The problem is that you are looking at this from an American stand point. What you have grown up
expecting services to cost. Thus the corruption in Guatemalan Adoptions.

Do you know what the minimum wage is there? Can you imagine what the "market" has done to foster care. If a poor single mom has accepted to care for a baby waiting to be adopted and receives the fee you are proposing. What does that do to her on-looking neibors, relatives? It has created a frenzy, with women caring for babies that aren't properly trained or have the acceptable home conditions to provide a clean
and healthy enviroment. These are problems you will not hear of from an agency or attorney.

If agencies would put a stop to the high prices they pay attorneys now. You would quickly see that they would happily take cases for 1000$. There are attorneys accepting this fee today! But hey, if the agencies are willing to pay more, why not accept.
The attorney themselves are not out everyday doing the day to day leg work of adoptions. They use minimum wage workers to stand in lines, go to courts, etc.
Let's say a lawyer has 30 cases and receives 1000$ for each. You can do the math.
Now let's say he he charges 5000
or 10,000. Do the math.

I would say the problem of Americans being willing to pay this extravagant price has created, over the years, the buying and selling of Guatemalan babies.

My heart breaks for them

Gaby
Gaby

The discussion about the cost of adoption in Guatemala vs. cost of living in Guatemala, etc. needs a simple analysis of mean income in the nation (I think $2,500USD*) and, estimated cost of true "care" of children in hogars, and professional fees for adoption services (agency workers and lawyers). I can assure you that $30,000+ is WAY beyond that--high quality care and professional fees factored in. This is MARKET DRIVEN and many elite Guatemalan adoption attorneys have become multi-millionares. There is NO doubt about that--do the math! The 20,000 adoptions that have taken place since 2000 have resulted in MILLIONS of dollars being spent (do the math). All of the professionals are getting their "take" (although many US agencies really are being quite fair). Frankly, with all of this talk about birth mother payment--the reality is that we're talking probably less than $1,000USD to the birth mothers (a HUGE sum to most Guatemalan women). Remember, Guate is one of the poorest countries in our hemisphere. Applying US standards for expenses such as the cost of foster care is not realistic (and I am not dimishing the work foster care work as it is important and hard). The millenium surge in intercountry adoption has led to a supply-deman equation and a few are getting rich--not the foster mothers or birth mothers. However, the finders, facilitators, and lawyers (especially) are making some handsome money! I am personally quite aware of this as I was approached on multiple occasions to be a facilitator because I am a trained social worker (MSW) and have lived in Guatemala off and on for the past 15 years (working in child health programs). I declined because I didn't want to be a part of a corrupt system--I like being able to sleep at night. (About that $2500 data, it is a mean score and thus the many people making a dollar-a-day are not really well-indicated in that number--however there are countless HOUSEHOLDS living on $25.00USD or less weekly.)

gaby -

I could (and really would like to ) address several things about your recent posts. Hospitals - have you been to one of the public hospitals in Guat. Not someplace I would want my child to go to. I'll pay extra for a well run, well staffed, well supplied private hospital. Frre immunizations you say? Sure they are free but a couple of questions: Who are the manufactors? Have the storage requirments (temperature, expiration dates) been met? I'll pay extra to make sure that they immunizations they receive are effective. Is this wrong? I don't think so. I don't get criticized if I refuse to buy medications over the internet if I suspect that they are not "genuine" for my older children...I see no difference here. Do I have a problem paying more money so that if my baby needs to have specialty formula (preemie, lactose intolerant, AR etc)? no. Am I willing to pay for more than the "basic medical care" that your typical Guatemalan gets (read that as meaning next to none)? Absolutely.

Does my williness to pay so that my children receive good nutrition, medical care, and attentive trained caregivers make me a unethical person? I don't think so.

Gaby,
We agree that Adoptive Families are paying way more than is ethically needed to complete the adoption; however, your estimate is not accurate.

We have lived in Guatemala for over a year and these are our cost:

One month of diapers is between 400 and 600 Quetzals = $52.00 - $78.00 (average cost $65.00).

Basic Formula, NAN, for one month cost is 650 Quetzals = $84.00

Water for Formula, because no one is advised to drink the water here. Water Delivery to keep cost down is 30 Quetzals = $4.00 a month, just for baby formula.

Baby Wipes for one month cost 160 Quetzals = $20.00

Laundry for Baby Items per month = 100 Quetzals = $13.00

Misc Other Expenses, Medications, Toys, Tethers, Teething Gel, Tummy Gas Relief, Clothes, Blankets, Etc.
Per Month 300 Quetzals = $36.00

Wages to Foster Mom, maybe around $5.00 a day, at least for taking care of the baby, for a total of $150.00 per month.

(Grand Total of Very Inexpensive Foster Care is $372.00 per month and $2,232.00 for 6 months and $4,464.00 for 1 year)

Now, this information came from a very reliable source. They said that many facilitators who take the $20,000.00 (currently considered a low Foreign Fee Rate) and want to pocket most of the money would go out and hire an inexpensive attorney, who will complete the adoption for around $1,500.

We were told that a top attorney would charge $5,000 to complete the adoption.

Now, agencies in the US often travel to Guatemala to meet new referrals, take pictures, and provide update to adoptive families. They also have a staff member that is the contact person between the Guatemalan facilitator and the Adoptive Parent. We estimate an average of monies needed to be around, at the most $200.00 per month = $1,200 for 6 months and $2,400 for 1 year.

So, the average cost of a 6 month adoption process with an inexpensive attorney is $4,932.00.

The average cost of a 6 month adoption process with a top attorney is $8,432.00.

The average cost of a 1 Year adoption process with an inexpensive attorney is $8,364.00.

The average cost of a 1 Year adoption process with a top attorney is $11,864.00.

With regard to transparency on the Guatemalan side, no, I don't know the exact break down of what the attorney makes or how much foster care is, etc. However, I would say that the same is true for our chinese adoption. We aren't given some kind of line item statement - there is a chunk that goes to the agency and a chunk that goes to the orphanage and there's certainly no information about how that money is spent with regard to our particular child. All foreign adoption programs are slightly different yet the one common thread seems to be lots of waiting with very little information. You have to make a leap of faith and trust your agency. With Guatemalan adoption, I believe the U.S. agencies are extremely reputable and the attorney's in Guatemala are also reputable. What's corrupt is the government. In our first adoption, we received video of our daughter when she was about 4 months old and she was being held by her foster mother. A few months later we got another video and she was being held by a different woman. I was flabberghasted and called our agency immediately. What had happened was that our attorney had seen the first foster mother out with several children and questioned her sharply about whether or not she was providing foster care for these other two children as well. She admitted that she was and he immediately removed our daughter to another home. The second foster mother was wonderful (not to say the first wasn't). This was a situation that no one would have ever known about had our attorney cared only about money and not our daughter getting the best possible care. I believe his actions indicated that he cared about his own reputation as a good adoption lawyer and he also cared about our daughter's welfare. Personally, I feel a lot better about the care our two Guatemalan babies are receiving then I do about our future Chinese daughter who will probably be abandoned on the doorstep of an orphanage and then receive only the minimum of attention and care while she is there.

A number of posts have addressed the issue of fees for adopting children from Guatemala. Leaving aside the fees charged by agencies in the U.S. (which I believe for the most part are perfectly reasonable), the fees typically charged by the Guatemalan attorneys border on the outrageous. Foster mothers are paid a pittance for their care of our precious children, often earning less than $150 USD per month. We have spoken with several Guatemalan foster parents who describe having to pay the costs of diapers, formula, medicine, and even doctor visits when the buscadoras refused to reimburse them. We are aware of at least one foster mother who was virtually held hostage, victimized by the loan sharking of her supervisor. We’ve heard first hand that gifts and money sent to foster families have been intercepted and stolen by attorneys and/or buscadoras. We are personally aware of a birth mother who was paid $2,500 for relinquishing her baby, in addition to her expenses for pre-natal care and hospital birth.

When we attempted a private adoption in Guatemala several years ago in which one of our Guatemalan family members was to foster the child (with my wife and I responsible for all the costs of care, etc.), we couldn’t find an attorney to take our case for less than the “customary” fee of more than $20,000. Their reasoning? They had to work with the other attorneys. Any reduction in fees would be highly frowned upon, even if the adoptive family (us, in this case) were picking up all the expenses customarily paid for by the attorney. For other tragic reasons, we ended our attempt at a private adoption.

Ultimately, our successful adoption through a U.S. agency ended up costing nearly $40,000 including home study, agency fees, Guatemalan attorney fees, and 2 trips to Guatemala. Outrageous? I certainly think so. But the truth is that even with our extensive network of friends and family in Guatemala, after several failed attempts at doing a private adoption we paid “the market price” as determined by the supply of, and demand for, adoptable babies. We are thankful that we had several “angels” who helped make it possible for us.

It should come as no surprise to any of us that, with so much money to be made by the attorneys who control the process from beginning to end, that there is corruption and abuses in the system. Although I am sympathetic with some of UNICEF’s positions, they are so very wrong in many ways regarding international adoption. I have no personal knowledge of the Casa Quivira case, but from here it certainly looks as if the hogar – and the children it cares for – is the unfortunate victim of politics. Let’s all pray that, for the sake of the children, the Guatemalan adoption system is fixed soon.

Protect the children - thank you for the cost breakdown.

Karen - median incomes mean NOTHING in a country with extreme poverty. I know you do research and know stats so you know what the median means as much as I do.

Let me state that if you look at the first thread on CQ (I think it was the first) I was the one who said we all know adoptions cost more than they should. It is the buscadoras that have caused this along with yes, we parents' willingness to pay the higher fees. The question is why?

Might the blame actually be placed on the forces that have caused country after country to close? Might that be creating a situation where PAPs have few choices and thus are stuck to what the market might bear.

There are definitely appealing aspects about Guatemala's system. Proximty and private foster care were two biggees for us. But few of us when initially getting into ICA had any connection or devotion to the country. I can say that El Salvador was out first choice because of friends we have from there, but the system doesn't really allow adoptions. So we chose Guatemala because it was best option for our family.

Maybe, just maybe, if the NGOs and bureaucrats could craete legal systems that provide opportunities for children there would be more country competition and lower the fees. And of course, the buscadoras and the Guatemalan system need reform and regulation. It's not an "as is" or "end adoptions" vote. There is a middle ground!

Foster moms should be paid far more than they are. By keeping their wages low it jeopardizes children. Contrary to your statement Gabi, the low wages open it up to unqualified people. It opens it up to things like people selling the formula they receive. If foster moms who have such an important job were paid a living wage, it would be a positive thing.

Lastly, on agency fees, we can't on one hand call for Hague insurance type rules and then on the other complain about the fees. Running any business is expensive. Should people in such an important career not have a decent salary? Do they not need to save for retirement, have health care, etc? Let's be real. I get paid quite well to market varous types of flavored sugar water. What I do for a living provides no real benefit to society. People like agency reps, teachers, etc should be paid more than me because of what they do or we need a far more socialist economy to even the playing field.

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Humor me for a second.

I just spent $40,000 on infertility treatment here in the US. That was just to try to get pregnanat. No guarntee, JUST TO TRY.

So you tell me I can spend the same money and acutally end up with a baby. Hmmmm, not a hard choice.

Personally I could care less what the price is, God has placed a vision in my heart even if it costs $40,000. I won't bargain nor barter on a price tag to have a family. I am not wealthy, I survive in the middle class of America, so I have to cut back on spending for a few years to pay for the adoption. We American's are spoiled rotten in our attitude that we think we deserve everything just the way we want and at the moment we want it.

If you want a child that costs less, why don't you adopt here in the US or do fostadopt? I have no problem financially supporting people who run orphanages and if they get rich doing it, so be it. Last time I checked, it was okay for people who choose a career to help children to have financial stability. Ever think that they are doing better things with the money than pocketing it? Like maybe building a free pediatric clinic in Antigua Guatemala which Casa Quivira is currently doing.

It makes me ill to think that the chilren at CQ are not being cared for and denied their care givers attention and love.......

I do not understand why the Guatemalan authorities are doing this......

kevin - do you think there could be any reason that because CQ does place children with non traditional families that has led to suspicions in the Guat govt?

Just a thought......

My heart and prayers going out to the children at the hogar......

Regards,
gloria

Maybe it would help to put the adoption "industry" money into perspective. An article on cnn.com today discussed the seizure of a submarine filled with cocaine, found off the coast of Guatemala:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/08/23/guatemala.sub.ap/index.html
The smugglers were "transporting approximately 5.5 tons of cocaine worth $352 million." That's ONE shipment, worth about 3 and a half times the amount that adoption might bring into the country in an entire YEAR (assuming $20,000 for adoption fees times 5000 adoptions = $100,000,000). And adoption, at least, does some good in the world!

Gloria what type of "non-traditional families" did CQ facilitate adoptions for?

Gaby - We're having problems responding to you privately because your email keeps bouncing.

Could you contact us through our email form and provide a different email address?? We just need to respond to your request offline and can't seem to do it.