JCICS has issued a new statement that can be found here: http://www.jcics.org/Guatemala.htm It basically states what Guatadopt had already reported about no vote likely this week.
Some may be confused by the statement about a potential Berger veto. While I have no information on this I'd conjecture it means that the ammended law as it would likely pass is "too watered down" for Berger. That does NOT mean that grandfathering is in question.
In addition, the Guatemalan Congress website has a post about how if the vote doesn't occur this week, it will likely occur the first two weeks of December. Of course, that is according to the head of the Congress who has made other similar statements in the past only for them to not come to fruition. That can be found, translated, here: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://www.congreso.gob.gt&langpair=es|en&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=/language_tools
Let me reiturate one more time that if no law is passed, or until such a time that one is passed, the legal adoption system in Guatemala remains unchanged. In addition, there is no one out there stating that any new law, whether it be Ortega or a new one, will not grandfather in process cases.
Thanks Kevin-
I am not sure if you saw the question I just posted on the forum right before you posted this...but I am curious as to the Dec 31 deadline. When you say "things will remain unchanged"...does this mean the Dec 31 deadline will mean nothing if the ammendments are not voted on? I understand "grandfathering will occur"...but wondering if the cases will be delayed until the US is Hague compliant in April.
As always, thank you so much for the information!
jen
Posted by: Jen at November 26, 2007 09:15 PMJen and others,
Please read this a couple of times as I know it is all really hard to keep straight.
Guatemala has a current law. Guatemala has reaffirmed its prior Hague accession, I believe setting a Jan 1 date.
The Hague Treaty only applies between two Hague countries. The US will not be a Hague country until April 08.
When a couuntry implements the Hague, they do it legislatively two ways. One way is like the US, where a separate set of laws will govern adoptions between Hague countries. Non-Hague adoptions are not impacted. The other way is to pass a new law that governs all adoptions and is compliant with the Hague. This manner, which Ortega appears to be, makes all adoptions Hague compliant, even if they are not covered under the Hague (as would be the case with adoptions to the US if Guatemala implements Ortega Jan 1).
So...
If no new law passes, even if Guatemala says it is in the Hague Jan 1, adoptions to the US are not impacted. There is no legal basis for it. There is no new law governing all adoptions, Hague or not. The US is not in the Hague thus adoptions to the US need not comply with it.
If a new law, ie Ortega, goes into effect Jan 1, then it would be for the Constitutional Court of Guatemala to decide whether a grandfather clause is legally needed, since the Constitution prevents a law from being implemented retroactively (with the exception of criminal law, which this is not). But that doesn't matter most likely because all indications point to a grandfather clause being a part of any new law implemented.
Anything can happen. So please don't shoot me if I end up wrong. But I do believe strongly that in-process cases will be completed. I see no indication that they won't be. I see no one out there screaming that there be no grandfather clause. Unicef supports it. The Hague supports it. US DOS supports it. Berger supports it. The law says they must do it. The best practices manual of the Hague says to do it.
At the moment, the only folks I see raising doubt are the media and all of their human interest stories. And in the meantime, the real story that needs to be covered is what has the Hague actually done to children worldwide. Has it succeeded in making adoptions cleaner, more transparent, and accessible? What kinds of laws are countries like Guatemala feeling obliged to implement? Okay, I could go on and on about this.
I hope that my novella helps to keep heads from spinning...
Kevin
Guatadopt.com
Does anyone know, looking to the future, beyond the in-process issue, whether adoptions would really be possible under the new law? If the law is passed, would it be imposed in full right away? How will this be possible in terms of intrastructure? I just can't stop thinking about what will happen to children once the law changes.
Posted by: K at November 26, 2007 11:06 PMI am wondering if anyone out there has any experience adopting from Guatemala through DeColores Adoptions International in LA? I am I-171 complete, wanting to adopt from Guatemala, and not having any luck with my current agengy (really anxious w/ 1/1/08 looming...) Any insights or experiences reagarding DAI would be much appreciated. Thanks! Robin
Posted by: Robin at November 27, 2007 12:59 AMKevin-
Thank you for the clarification. I consider myself an intelligient person, and I have been trying to read everything I can in order to understand this...but I was still confused.
I have to agree with your comment/question regarding how the has Hague affected children worldwide. I do strongly agree that all adoptions should be ethical. I also think that many of the laws and governmental safeguards that have been put into place to support the Hague have in effect doomed many children. It seems that worldwide we have not struck an optimal balance on keepign things ethical and placing children in loving homes in a timely fashion.
As a PAP-I constantly need to remind myself that I cannot forget the larger picture of what we are dealing with here-thousands of children.
Thansk again,
Jen
Thank you Kevin for explaining the issues. I pray all in process cases complete without delay and that adoptions will remain an option for all children of need in Gautemala.
Best place for answers is going to the "guatadopt.com forum". Alot of PAPs to share their experiences, not to mention the fabulous Guatadopt moderators and staff. :)
Marie, Guatadopt.com
Kevin, thank you for your interpretation. I must say that I didn't sleep well last night when I read the JCICS post on their web site. I wish I would have stayed up long enough to read your statement. You are always able to put things in perspective. I have to admit when I read the statement before your interpretation, I was scared to death. Thank you for your insight...you have calmed my nerves.
Posted by: Brenda at November 27, 2007 09:27 AMJust wondering...we rec'd referral on Oct 31-agency doesn't expect it to be ok'd till 1/08--are we considered "in process"? any insight would be appreciated--thank you in advance Cheryl
Posted by: cheryl zamil at November 27, 2007 09:35 AMokay, now I am the one who is confused... :)))
I thought the Ortega law had already been passed, and that we have just be waiting for an amendment that includes grandfathering so that we'll *know* that all in-process cases will proceed under 'old' (current) notarial law???
Also - Cheryl Zamil - what does your agency mean by "ok'd by 1/08" - dossier & POA translated and registered by then??
thank you,
Lisa
Posted by: Lisa at November 27, 2007 10:02 AMKevin,
Thanks, I'm somewhat relieved, though still living on pins and needles. 11 months ago I received a referral and hope to heck the process is complete before January.
ROBIN: There's no way on earth I would start a Guatemalan adoption right now! If your current agency is not making referrals, good for them. If there are still agencies out there who are, shame on them. Until the laws are passed and the process spelled out no more children or PAPs should be drawn into a limbo wherein old laws may apply in some circumstances, and new laws in others. Better to wait for the dust to settle.
Posted by: Lynn at November 27, 2007 10:54 AMThanks Kevin. You are being very polite in asking us to read and re-read the post:) You have said that same thing over and over again and your judgement is right on the money. You cannot give an opinion on each individual case. You do not have a crystal ball and cannot tell me what will happen in the future - you can only give your intelligent opinion as someone who lives and breathes this process and has 'been there and done that'. Thank you. As you say the prognosis looks good and I have to stop trying to imitate President Clinton by constantly asking for the definition of the word 'is'! I will drive myself nuts trying to hash and re-hash everything anyone posts about this subject. There is nothing more I can do except wait. It is not pleasant but that is how it is and I definitely knew this when I signed on for this process. Thanks for your words as they are not just 'words' but a level-headed assessment taking into consideration all parties and factors. I choose to derive comfort from it and go out and have a good day and make each day following a good day too. Anything else is just wasted energy. Thanks!
Posted by: Grandfather Clause Not Santa Claus for 2007 at November 27, 2007 11:09 AMLisa,
By "OK"--that the case went through the PGN in Guat. and was "OK'd" by them. our dossier was sent & referral given.
CZ
Posted by: cheryl at November 27, 2007 11:45 AMThanks, Kevin. The clarification really helped.
Posted by: Jim at November 27, 2007 01:24 PMDoes anyone think there is still a chance for all of us that have been immigration approved but haven't accepted a referral? This is exhausting! We so very much want to accept a referral and feel safe in doing it. We decided to wait until an announcement is made but I'm wondering how many people are actually out there like us. We have been wondering if we are the lucky one's not to be caught in the middle or if we will be among the one's that came so close and don't get included in grandfathering. It's a shame to come this close. I hope they remember us (the people) that are out there and already approved.
Posted by: Trish at November 27, 2007 02:24 PMAmen to what "Grandfather Clause not Santa Claus" had to say! Let's all try to read all we can on this site and others before we ask questions, and remember that Kevin is a volunteer with a life he's trying to live. We're all anxious, but patience is the key to surviving this whole process.
Posted by: reba at November 27, 2007 03:22 PMRobin,
We just completed our second adoption with Decolores the first of the month. If Kevin can give you my e-mail address get with me and we'd be glad to tell ya what we know.
Cindy
Hey Trish, we are not immigration approved nor have we accepted a referral. We are waiting for the approval AND for the grandfather clause prior to accepting. Wondering when or even if we will get immigration approval, according to USCIS's Detroit ofc. processing site, I-600A apps aren't moving too quick.
Janet
Posted by: Janet J at November 27, 2007 05:42 PMTrish-my husband and I have been immigration approved for about 2 months. Luckily our agency had the foresight to not have us continue on to get a referral until things were clearer. We feel like you....not quite in-process, but so close. We, too, hope that we might make the grandfathering "cut", but we also realize we could be saving ourselves a lot more heartache. Our thoughts go out to those who have referrals and are waiting for their beautiful children to come home.
Posted by: Sue at November 27, 2007 08:08 PMRobin, perhaps Kevin can give you my email, and we can exchange phone numbers. I have four Guatemalan daughters! I have had the best experience with DeColores. My first adoption with them was incredibly smooth. The second one is going well in terms of getting photos, updates, etc. I personally believe that Guatemala will complete all adoptions filed currently. In the future, there may not be any, but for now, I feel safe. My suggestion is to get your dossier in IMMEDIATELEY. Don't dally. Don't even go out to dinner if you can be home putting together paperwork! Good luck!
Posted by: Gretchen at November 27, 2007 09:00 PMThank you, thank you, Kevin, for continuing to provide us with your insight. It's so hard to filter through all the information out there (the Hague website, the DOS and embassy sites, etc) and come away with a practical understanding of where things stand.
Thanks again!!!
Posted by: LeAnn at November 27, 2007 09:40 PMAny idea where someone has to be to be grandfathered in? POA, family court, PGN?
Posted by: Kerri at November 27, 2007 11:20 PM