Kevin,

The Congressional website is updated, but does not mention this on their agenda.

I just looked at the 'Order of the Day', http://www.congreso.gob.gt/gt/ver_agendadia.asp?id=654, 12:09 ET, and there is no mention of the adoption law. Though, if it is a vote and not a discussion, maybe they didn't list it?

Kevin Fosko

I know it's not on the published agenda. I can't say that the vote will hapen, just reporting what we've heard. This is obviously a very heated political debate and so you never know what may happen.

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Kevin- please let us know as soon as you hear anything, we are all waiting on pins and needles. I did not see anything on JCICS on this today.

AHHHHHHHHHH the Suspense.

The fist and second vote of the Ortega Law were passed, yesterday and today. It is expected that the third vote will be done tomorrow. Let us wait until it is really passed, to start figuring out the consequences of the law. Meanwhile, keep the pressure to get a decent law.
Susana Luarca, ADA

Kevin,
The first reading of the new proposal - the Ortega Law with soem changes - was actually yesterday and the second reading took place today. It is likely that the third reading will be tomorrow,although one never can be sure. All we know is that the pressure is strong and that the time it becomes effective is the main issue. The proposal is bad and to appoint Binestar Social who could not even handle a hogar like Casa Quivira and failed to keep the children healthy, is the worst choice as Central Authority. Let us wait to see if it is really passed, before we get worried.
Susana Luarca, ADA

Susana, do you know if the grandfather clause was one of the changes? If so, does it spell out what stage you have to be at (POA registered?) to be included in the grandfathering?
Thank you!

Susana, given that SBS is the worst choice, who do you feel SHOULD be the choice for the central authority?

OK...so I just want to get this right. Has the "grandfathering clause" passed? Do you feel that there will be any PGN delays due to this? What is all this Bienestar stuff? Sorry, but I am totally confused. Thanks.

Oh...... I just can't beleive how the tide changes in Guatemala.... one day one thing ... the next day another... my heart and prayers go out to those whose children are in the midst of this ........

Blessings,
Gloria
mom to 5 Guatemalan blessings

Yes PLEASE let us know as soon as you have any news. We are so nervous about all of what is going on and we are just waiting for our DNA test (the first one), so this is extremely important to know. Thanks for keeping us posted.

I have no further information at this time. There's nothing I am not sharing.

My OPINION is that the new law, which will contatain a grandfather clause, may not explicitly state what in-process is defined as or if any new requirements will be done. A law often states the rule, ie "in process cases are to be completed under existing laws", but does not say how that is to be implemented. It may also relegate who has that authority.

Hang in there,

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

We have prayed faithfully for three years wondering if we were to adopt our 5th child (4 biological)from Guatemala. We finally felt we had confirmation on Sunday AND NOW THIS!! I feel my heart had been shattered I don't want to give up. I have been on the phone all day with agencies begging to give me a chance to get our paperwork started and give us a chance. Am I crazy, we don't feel lead to adopt from anywhere elese so the money we would put up to do a homestudy and start our application would be lost if Guatemala falls apart, I am suppose to meet with the agency in the morning who I begged to take our case.. Please anynoe have advice... Desperate to see no child left behind!!!!

I have confirmation that there was a second reading and vote today for a proposal which is an amended, Hague compliant version of the Ortega Bill. Rather than try to incorporate all of the amendments, they created new legislation with the amendments incorporated into it. However, this law does not address the issues in the Ortega Bill which we thought the Congress was addressing in their meeting of Nov.6, which was reported to include an autonomous central authority (NOT Bienestar), a funding plan, some continuation of notarial services, and private NGO's providing services to children, among other considerations. FOA applauded the efforts of the Guatemalan Congress to provide reasonable reform.

However, it is reported that these efforts for developing a functional adoption program and a more realistic implementation date which would avoid numerous constitutional challenges, as well as provide the opportunity for children born in the next few months to enter the system, while a new system is being established, is being impeded by the U.S. government's pressure.

Some of the congress is resisting this pressure, but they report that others who would vote for a better law and later implementation date are being influenced. This is the time when it is really important to make our concerns known.

IF this is DOS' version of a "functional adoption program" *which John Lowell stated was a major concern of the U.S. in his interview with Guatadopt, we need to confront our government with their "double speak", as this current law does not provide any practical plan for implementation.

It will have a grandfather clause for all cases started before its implementation date, but that does not address the current and future children whose right to have a family is not protected.

Call and write to your congressional representatives (Senate and House) and ask them to get involved in HOW the Department of State is applying the Hague Treaty in Guatemala and pressing for a horrible law and Dec.31 implementation date.

Hannah Wallace, Pres. FOA

Comment back to Nancy: Unfortunately this is not the time to start a guatamelan adoption....guatadopt has warned against it as has DOS as has the JCICS (the JCICS actually told agencies not to give more referrals & told parents for the few agencies that might give out referrals to say no).
The uncertainities are just too great.

Nancy, i know it is heartbreaking especially since you had your heart set on it, but I would say do not start a Guatemalan Adoption right now. Everyone JCICS, DOS and Guadadopt has put out their warnings against it. It is not a wise choice. If you have to beg an agency to take you that is not a good sign. Please do your self a favor and wait to see how things work out and the dust settles before you make any decisions.

I have to agree, now is the not the time to start an adoption in Guatemala. DOS issued a warning back in March and guatadopt.com also.
An ethical agency should not be issuing referrals at this time.
Marie, Guatadopt.com

My husband and I just received the results of our first DNA. You mentioned that you were researching the US comment on no authorizations. Did you find out anything about that, and if it holds true are people like ourselves in the clear? I'm sure it's nothing to worry about- to me it just doesn't make sense.

Nancy,

Its simply too late, any reputable agency would insist you wait until the new system, whatever that may be, is up and running. People starting now, is in my opinion, the reason the US is pressuring the Guatemalan Congress to stick to the December 31, 2008 implementation date. Please don't be a part of the problem be responsible and a part of the future process in Guatemala. Its time to put the children first and doing anything to jeopardize the situation is wrong IMHO, and I know that is not your intent. Please have patience and wait and see what next year brings.

Nancy,
I have to agree with Susan. I would not wish anyone to be in the situation that we and other families are in right now. Spare yourself the heartache. Do not begin a Guatemala adoption at this time. If an agency is willing to work with you right now - don't walk - RUN away!

You have waited 3 years to begin. If you wait one more, this mess may be over. There is such a need in Guatemala that it is difficult to believe that adoptions will be halted forever.

My reccomendation (for what it's worth) is to enjoy your holiday without worrying about adopting. Wait until April, see how the new system is working and then maybe, just maybe begin working with an agency.

Even if an agency will work with you, you will likely not be far enough along in the process to be grandfathered if the Hauge implementation date is December 31st.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but someone has to tell you the truth. Any agency willing to talk to you about Guatemala right now - probably cares more about your money than you. Sorry.

On the Guatemalan Congress Government page, there was an article about the possibility of an extraordinary session of Congress on the adoption law sometime the first two weeks in December if the adoption law is not passed in November. Congress is now in recess.

Rather than offer my translation and make an incorrect interpretation, I post the article, in Spanish, here:

from http://www.congreso.gob.gt/gt/ver_noticia.asp?id=4478

Sinopsis: El Presidente del Congreso de la República, diputado Rubén Darío Morales Velíz, informó en conferencia de prensa, que a través del diálogo y consenso con la Instancia de Jefes de Bloque, se promoverá aprobar la “Ley de Adopciones”, durante las sesiones ordinarias programadas para está semana. (Autor: Héctor Solis en nombre de Departamento de Comunicación Social , 26/Noviembre/2007, 17:12 )

“Se elaboró una nueva propuesta de ley, en la cual se toman en cuenta la opinión de las bancadas de los partidos políticos representados en este Alto Organismo, así como las sugerencias del Buró de la Haya”, expresó.

El presidente del Legislativo añadió que, en caso de no ser aprobada dicha ley durante estos días, se convocará a sesiones extraordinarias durante las primeras dos semanas del mes de diciembre, porque el próximo 30 de noviembre concluye el período legislativo establecido en la Carta Magna.

“Consideramos efectuar cuatro sesiones extraordinarias, y confió en la buena voluntad política de aprobar las leyes de beneficio para el país”, puntualizó.

Añadió que, varios embajadores de otras naciones acreditados en nuestro país, han visitado al Congreso, pero no representa una presión para aprobar la Ley que va a regular la adopción como institución de interés nacional y sus procedimientos judicial, notarial y administrativo.

Let me guess...they didn't do the 3rd reading today, right?!? We have to wait another 2 weeks until their extraordinary session, right?!? Are they seriously going to pass this thing 2 weeks before its implementation date? Every time we're supposed to find out something it gets delayed for another 2 weeks...I think they are seriously trying to kill us with this stress.

Susana - can you confirm that nothing happened today??

Thanks.

Nancy,
I actually understand how you feel. I am on a waiting list for a referral and thought I had a good chance of getting a referral, but it is not looking that way now. I was moving forward knowing that there were risks, but there are risks in any adoption. The one thing that helps me though is that I know God has a plan and it is a good one! I truly understand how you are feeling right now and often need to pray if I should be patient or more diligent. Do what is best for your family.
Melissa

When I used Paralink, I got the following translation of the article Kevin posted:

The President of the Congress of the Republic, deputy Rubén Darío Morales Velíz, reported in press conference, that across the dialogue and consensus with the Chiefs' Instance of Block, it will be promoted to approve the “ Law of Adoptions ”, during the ordinary meetings programmed for está week. (Author: Héctor Solis on behalf of Department of Social Communication, 26/Noviembre/2007, 17:12)
“There was prepared a proposed piece of news of law, in which they take in account the opinion of the worksurfaces of the political parties represented in this High Organism, as well as the suggestions of the Bureau of the The Hague ”, it expressed.
The president of the Legislative one added that, in case of the above mentioned law was not approved during these days, will be summoned for extraordinary meetings during the first two weeks of December, because next November 30 he concludes the legislative period established in the Great Letter.
“We consider to carry four extraordinary meetings out, and he trusted in the good political will to approve the laws of benefit for the country”, it specified.
He added that, several ambassadors of other nations credited in our country, they have visited to the Congress, but it does not represent a pressure to approve the Law that is going to regulate the adoption as institution of national interest and his judicial, notarial and administrative procedures.

Hi
I would like to address Hannah Wallaces post about our DOS and John Lowell. Maybe I am not reading this clearly but unsure what the DOS is doing to pressure the Guatemalan Government? Why would it benefit the US to have this implemented this quickly? I will contact our Congressmen as I am on first name basis with most of their staff (we are a CQ family)and unfortunately one of the few that still don't have our son back at CQ due to some influences by some outside party's that in my opninion are impeding our cases moving forward. I am not sure what I am asking my government to do here. Any insight is greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
Mary Pat

To those of you wanting to adopt from Guatemala.. My husband and I feel that God is placing it on our hearts too. I know that it is risky right now, but no one on earth knows how things will work out. Continue to pray..as we are.. and God will work things out whichever way he wants you to go. Be open to his voice on your hearts and listen to what he wants you to do.

Oh my..can anyone take a try at the spanish of Kevin's post today? Anyone know a way to talk to someone at the embassy? I am tired of e-mail...I want to talk to a person...

To all those waiting for a referral, I'm right there with you. It has been exhausting wondering each day and thinking there will be an answer. It's been so hard seeing picture's of the babies and not being able to say yes. I watch them disappear daily to other potential adoptive parents who are willing to take the risk. We were willing and excited Nov 7th when the good news came out that day. It's just so hard when you have come this far and actually have immigration approval. Still praying that we will be included! Dec 31st is not fair to us that are approved and willing to give a child a good home!

Well said, Lisa, thank you! I prayed for three months regarding whether or not to even adopt again (1st from China), and I continue to pray, holding out, never giving up hope for the innocent Guatemalan children that truly need a family.

Please pardon my frustrated rant. I find totally repellent the DOS meddling including bribes and threats of denial of visas to Guatemalan Congress Members if they don't vote the way DOS wants. Bad old days of control over Central America like those of the United Fruit Company and CIA operations are obviously back in full drive for even more disreputable motives.
There appears to be no other clear motive for our administration and its minions to try to block adoptions from Guatemala other than the fact that keeping brown skinned people out of this country is a priority of our presidency and its party. Mary Pat and other folks, as far as I can see, it's flat out ethnocentrism and prejudice that are reasons why DOS is trying to shut down Guatemalan adoptions. After all, DOS is an agency answerable to the Executive Branch and therefore the Republican Party. You didn't have to see too much of the YouTube Republican Debate the other night to see the anti-immigration fervor pointed primarily southward.
My spouse and I went into adoption from Guatemala a year ago educated but positive, yet we are now very disheartened by seemingly unending roadblocks and hassles. As for me, I also find myself both embarrased and disgusted by the behaviour of that certain part of our government, which is yet again acting as the Ugly American bullying a smaller Latin American nations. As a result, it is causing and threatening untold suffering of innocent children abroad, would be parents in this country, and other people in Guatemala.
My state's senators are both AWOL on this issue with one seemingly towing the party line and the other totally unresponsive to the early November push. It has frustrated me enormously. Kevin, I appreciate your info greatly and hope you'll continue to keep fighting the good fight as I will irregarless of how things turn out in our case. If anybody has any suggestions of other ways to try to make a positive impact on this problem, I welcome them.

Thank you soooo much Melissa and Lori. We answer to a much higher authority than our Goverment. I would NEVER want to do anything that would jepordize the children in Guatemala I believe my daughter is there and if I give up now she may not have a fighting chance. Why not try our darndest (while complying with the laws of the land) to fight for our kids!! If they pass this law those kids will be forced into orphanages where they could die. I will pray without ceasing on behalf of those kids but I will not give up! God's timming is perfect and I believe in MIRACLES "...I pray that now at last in God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you" Romans 1:10

Nancy, given the fact that you thanked the two people who talked about beginning an adoption but did not thank those who advised you *not* to accept a referral, I doubt you'll like what I have to say.

There's an old joke in which a drowning man asks God to rescue him: A speedboat comes and offers the man help, but he refuses because he says "No, I don't need you - God will save me". He says the same thing to a cruise ship and a helicopter who come to offer help. Eventually, the man drowns and when he goes to heaven, he asks God, "Why didn't you save me?" God says, "Gee whiz, I sent you a boat, a ship, and a helicopter, what more did you want from me?

I really don't know what additional information you can possibly seeking to make your decision. You can believe in a higher power all you want, but the fact is, the DOS and the government of Guatemala are going to make the rules, laws, and deadlines that you will have to abide by. My strong advice is to heed their warnings (as well as the warning issued by guatadopt) and not begin an adoption at this time.

Nancy--You need to do what your heart is calling you to do. It takes roughly 3 months to go through your home study and gather your dossier. By that time, surely, we hope and pray for the children, you will know where both (US and Guatemala) countries stand. You can then make your final decision. I would have a back up plan( rumor has it, the US may not be accepting new I600A applications for Guatemala- we should know something here by the end of the year, we hope). Sometimes we have a plan, but our higher power has another. Have faith....as we all are right now.

It's such an emotional time for all of us right now. Our referral (and I171H) came in right at that "deadline" in October. We just got DNA results back and the SW interview is complete. I still am nervous about our choice; but knew I couldn't stop and felt it was our path to continue. I just knew if we didn't accept, I'd never forgive myself for not trying. I hope and pray every night for all the children. When we accepted, we knew it was a risk, (our agency made us sign a waiver!) and it was a risk in March too when we started the whole process! I just assumed we'd be farther along at this point!?

I know how you're feeling and understand where you're coming from. Do know your risks - emotional, financial, etc. Know it could be a looooonnnnnngggg process. Know the governments may make choices for you. I'm sure you will enter the process with your eyes wide open. My heart goes out to you during this tough time.

LMR

Below is from the GT congress website. Congress is now on vacation, it is reproting that a special session will convene to approve the Adoptions Act sometime in Dec. This is all we know right now, any changes as they occur and as usual, we will verify from our sources and post it, so we cannot comment right now. Thank you in advance for your patience. Please note all Congress website announcements and most adoption related newpaper articles, along with cultural and GT related
articles are posted and translated on the Forum daily by 6am.I strongly encourage all to read the articles as many pertain to issues(other than adoptions)that are concerning to your child's birth country.
Marie and the Guat Team

Guatemala, Friday November 30, 2007, 03:33 hrs

[b]CONGRESS OF THE REPUBLIC OF GUATEMALA[/b]
Link: http://www.congreso.gob.gt/gt/ver_noticia.asp?id=4495

Fifth Legislature, 2004 - 2008
Newsletter
CONGRESS CLOSE SECOND SESSION ORDINARY.

Synopsis: In compliance with the provisions of the Constitution, the plenary of the Congress of the Republic approved the agreement Legislature, which declared the second regular session. (Author: Hector Solis on behalf of the Department of Social Communication, 29/Noviembre/2007, 11:20)

The Constitution provides that the legislature, began its regular session of January 14 to May 15, and an August to November 30.

In the above adds that the congressmen can be summoned by the Standing Committee, the governing body which should serve as the Board of Directors, to highlight issues that motivate the call.

The commission will be chaired by deputy Ruben Dario Morales Velíz, who reported that through dialogue and consensus, to convene special sessions to approve Adoptions Act, as well as to contribute to the security and social development, among others.

K,

I must say that I read your posts and they are very clear. I then read subsequent posts by others and they are not clear and/or completely wrong in their info. You have said and continue to say that a grandfather clause will likely pass and that in-process cases will continue. Why then do so many not comprehend this message, among others, to follow your post with misinformation that these cases will stop and the kids will die? I only raise this question so that the misinformation will stop and the rumors and such will stop. We need GOOD QUALITY INFO and not poor info because people fail to really read and comprehend what you are saying. I am personally tired of the roller coaster and feel that any sloppy info is only causing more harm than good.

Bob,

I think you may be confusing people talking about the future as opposed to in process cases. No one is saying in process cases will not be grandfathered. The media continues to run stories that raise doubt but that serves their purposes.

Statements about what may happen to children are about children who in teh future may suffer because of the law, but not those who have already been referred to a family.

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

I'm not sure if you post all the comments which you receive, or only select comments. I truly think of Guatadopt as my most reliable, up-to-date source for adoption-related NEWS. (Although we do research other sites as well.) Obviously we all have concerns about the many unknowns that are out there right now, but this particular forum doesn't seem the best to query about individual adoption-related questions. It seems that those should be posed to our own agencies. It's helpful to get general feedback from others in-process, but that dilutes the other posts. Perhaps guatadopt is intended to be a forum for all those questions as well, or Kevin wouldn't post the comments?!

Has the newly elected President and VP expressed their views on International Adoptions? Could Congress delay until they are sworn in based on their above listed schedule?

Here's my concern. Everyone keeps saying that their sources indicate, or that a grandfather clause will likely be included.

But, didn't congress just pass the legislation on consecutive days? Surely someone could actually confirm the verbiage of the bill and see if the actual grandfather language is included. KWIM?

Kevin, I think this is why the uncertainty is still out there even though you all continue to try to re-assure us. No one has been able to say with certainty - "yes - I have seen the text and it includes grandfathering".

Nancy will do what God leads Nancy to do. For people without faith it may not make sense. If you believe that the Guatemala government or the DOS are in control,you may not be a person of faith. If you are, your God may not be as big as the one who created the universe. I realize warnings, advice and thing do look grim in Guatemala, but for heaven's sake...have you ever read the Bible? Has anyone that God called on,not faced hard times or going against the odds? maybe we need to quote scriptures to guide us and not jokes. Yes...I do agree we need to be practical, but at the same time...if you feel the calling deep within your spirit..it is for a reason. God will give you a peace. Just trust HIM. I'm sorry for the people who don't see the larger picture. If you are worried about the money that might be lost or the efforts that might be in vain you are not focused on what really matters. Adoption is a journey. We learn Life lessons through this journey. NOTHING in this life is guaranteed. We are not guaranteed a tomorrow, but we still live functioning lives and don't fear death and allow it to paralize us. We are to live in the NOW and know that God is in control. This may seem like jibberish to someone who doesn't have a grasp on the big picture, but one day maybe they will get it. Why are we here? We are called according to HIS purpose! Is it always easy NO. Nancy will do hopefully what God leads her to do. She may not feel led, but if she does...it's not for us to tell her what to do. It is something she will know in her spirit not discover in someone elses advice.

Does anyone have a current timeline for pre-auth these days? THANKS!

I have a question that is not related to the Ortega Law but with the new procedure of how the Embassy is issuing dates (Pink Slips). Has anyone received an email of their date since they enacted the new procedure of emailing us? We have been out of PGN since the beginning of Oct and our second DNA is a match. Our agency received a copy of the second DNA. We have not heard from the Emabassy of our date. Is there a way to find out if they got the second DNA results and when our court date is? We have heard of people finding out their Embassy dates after the date has passed.

Marianthe,

I agree that Nancy and all those who feel a conviction of the Holy Spirit to proceed - to do so. I mean, who am I to tell God otherwise. Now, having said that, God may want us started in the process to change our direction at a later time.

To those that feel a strong conviction to proceed even with all the warnings: You must be prepared to die to self; to be willing to have your faith, your life, your home, your family, your finances tested and challenged.

I entered into this coming to peace with the fact that if I had to give up everything I had and move to Guatemala -- I would do so.

Are you willing to lay it all on the line and still praise God and thank Him when it looks like you are alone in the middle of nowhere?

Hard questions but unless you are ready to answer them, you may not be ready to adopt from Guatemala where you do risk losing it all.

Kevin,
I want to preface this statement:
I am a very real and devouted follower of Christ that has a daily walk throughout the week with HIM, and while I might agree with the content of my fellow believers in this forum, I don't believe Guateadopt is the appropriate place for these "God told me too, God sent a boat.......etc etc" conversation or post. There are other forums/sites for this kinds of subjective comments, opinions and engagements. I come to Guatadopt to learn about the political atmosphere, information and news on Guat adoptions as indicated by the title of Guatadopts site.
Can you get the forum back on track and keep it from being religiously highjacked.
Scott

The joke on the speedboat is actually correct you just have a few of the players in the wrong place. See I don't need to be saved the children of Guatamala do and I am driving the speedboat with the almighty God holding the wheel!!! And when I get to heaven holding the hand of my Guatemalan blessing I will hear the most wonderful words "Well done my good and faithful servant" Some of you need to get your eyes of all the politics and render to Ceaser that which is Ceaser and leave the businnes of miracles up to God!! My Goodnesss if none of us were willing to risk a heartache or even a fincial loss nothing would ever get done. I believe my eyes are wide open and looking up!! The door is not closed and until it is slammed in my face I will fight! I could live with a long process and a big heartache but what I could not live with is the thought a little child may go hungry and cold and never say the words"I love you Mommy" because I worried more about myself than their precious little soles. God be Glorified!!

The Guatemalan Congressional website now has the full text of the adoption law on line. It does contain a grandfather clause. It is Article 56. It states that all cases, both notarial and judcial, under way must be registered with the Central Authority within 30 days of the passage of this law. If registered, they will proceed to conclusion under existing law. If not registered, they will have to comply with the new law.

Can someone explain what "being registered with the Central Authority " means? What part of the process is this exactly? Thanks!

Dear Marianthe,
I believe nothing works well in my life that is not in God's plan for me and I try continually to discern God's path for my life. But God speaks to me in many ways, and sometimes, I believe, it's through other people and the words of wisdom they have for me.

I hope we can try not to insult (or diminish the size of) other people's relationship with God, however the picture might look for them. It is only for God to judge.

Wishing the best for your journey,
Reba

As a fellow Christ-follower, I too would like to see Guatadopt remain a forum for adoption-related news. If anyone believes that God is directing their current decisions (which I believe He does), we can't argue with that, but I would prefer that Guatadopt remain primarily a news and information site. Heading to check the Guat. cong. site now...

Guatemalan Congressional Initiative 3735
Law of Adoptions
Introduced November 27, 2007
…
…
Chapter VIII—Transitional Rules
Article 56. Adoption in Progress
All notarial and judicial adoption proceedings that are found in progress at the moment at which the instant law takes effect [translator’s note—according to Article 68 of this same proposed law, that date would be December 31, 2007], should be registered with the Central Authority within a period no greater than thirty days, and with respect to the effects of said registration of cases, the latter will continue in progress in conformity with the law in effect at the time of their initiation. The cases that are not registered within the indicated time period will be resolved in accordance with the procedures established by the instant Law.

Source: http://www.congreso.gob.gt/archivos/iniciativas/registro3735.pdf

Scott see the thing is if you have a daily walk with the Lord and are indeed a true follower of Christ you can not seperate the two. Yes I believe this forum is designed for a purpose of wordly news happenings in Guatemala and I appreciate that very much,but those of us who walk by faith can not take God out of the picture. Most definetly, when we the people who are common folk, who love these children have no voice we HAVE to look to GOD. Yes I could do without the speedboat ethier!! Maybe if way back when when our country was founded on Judeo Christian beliefs in our constitutuon we would'nt be having these problems. Let's stick to the issues at hand but let us not fail to be an encouragement to one another and build eachother in the faith.

Does anyone know what will be required to "register" within 30 days? Will these be easy or will there be any strings attached to the registration process making it difficult for some to complete their registration within the 30 day time period?

Also, once registered under the new Central Authority, will grandfathered cases still have to meet new requirements, such as more birth mother interviews, etc., etc.?

And how long does the grandfather clause go? Does the April 1st Hague date apply to all those in process at the time, so therefore it really isn't 'grandfathered' under the old laws and rules?

This is very, very, very hard for all of us in process. It just seems like we have been waiting forever on pins and needles and worried sick about how things will play out.

Any input would sincerely be appreciated.

Pete

Brian can you please provide a link to that website much appreciated

Brian,
Can you post the link exactly to where the information is you referrred to above.
I cant find it.
Thanks.
Lisa

To All,

We have only one rule about what can't be posted and that is personal attacks on other commenters.

So to the person who asked, we do not censor ANYTHING! In the numerous years I've moderated the site with Kelly, I think we could could count all of the not-approved posts on our fingers and toes (spam excluded).

With that said, I would prefer it if we could not use the site for a religious debate. The forums might be a better place for a thread about god and adoption. But when the comments come in to a thread like this it makes it harder for folks not intersted in it to get to the comments they want.

But, this is in the hands of our readers as I will continue to approve all posts that don't break the one golden Guatadopt rule (pun intended).

Peace,

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

I agree with Scott V! Let's not lose sight of the fact that Guatemalan adoptions have been open not just for Christians, but for Jews, aethists and whatnot. Some of these overly religious comments are becoming offensive, even to the most religious among us.
As an in-process parent, I've lobbied hard for a grandfather provision to protect me and all the others in my boat. It didn't seem at all fair for us to get stuck when we proceeded in good faith under the existing laws.
But to start an adoption now is a different matter entierly. We have all been adequately warned and truthfully, there probably is corruption in the system that requires new laws in order to protect the kids of Guatemala. Any agency that would take on a case at this time is certainly an unreputable one you certainly don't want to deal with.
Having just returned from Guatemala, I've heard from many sources that what is really upsetting the DOS these days is the number of new cases initiated after so many warnings have been put out there.

Nancy - If you are not really interested in listening to an answer, don't ask the question.

Educate yourself about Guatemala adoptions, and the REALITIES that many of us on this site are dealing with every day. If you have not been there - you obviously can't quite understand the complexity, and anguish of it.

Please, don't question my faith. That is between me and my God. I was only trying to spare you pain.

The process is slow. You have not even started the process. You are too late to be grandfathered. You may be working with a angency with questionable intentions. Unless you are planning to smuggle "your daughter" across the border, you may never be able to legally bring her home.

It is so easy to be lead by our hearts. The best decisions are made with heads and hearts.

Here are the original Spanish and my translation of the Article 56.

"Articulo 56. Adopciones en tramite. Todos los precedimientos notariales y judiciales de adopcion que se encuentran en tramite al momento de la vigencia de la presente ley, deben ser registrados ante la La Autoridad Central, en un plazo no mayor de treinta dias, para los efectos del registro del caso, estos continuaran el tramite de conformidad con la ley vigente al tiempo de su iniciacion. Los casos que no sean registrados en el plazo senalada se resolveran de acuerdo a los precidimientos establacidos en la presente ley."

Translation: Article 56. Adoptions in process. All of the notarial and judicial adoption proceedings that are in process at the time this present law takes effect must be registered with the Central Authority within a period no longer than thirty days for the purpose of the case's registration. These [cases] will continue in process according to the law prevailing at the time of their initiation. The cases that are not registered in the assigned period will be resolved according to the procedures established in this present law.

The link is: http://www.congreso.gob.gt/gt/ver_iniciativa.asp?id=3977

My Spanish isn't all that great (at all). Does it say anything about singles being able to adopt? I'll keep trying to find it, too.

Thanks, Kimberly

When is the "process" considered done for the purposes of the grandfather clause? If I get out of PGN in the next week or so but can't get PINK until early January -- how is my case affected?

Whoa - my worry with the Central Authority is that EVERYONE is going to be trying to get registered within the 30 day timeline. How will this work with 3700 cases trying to get registered? Will we have to wait to be "approved" or "officially registered" before the adoption can continue? I realize no one knows the answer probably yet...but just a question I have.

I hope that those in process are allowed to finish their adoption. To those thinking about,please wait a little bit longer. We would like to adopt again (an older child this time), but are waiting. It is the best for everyone involved. Are they still issuing the I-171H ??? If so, since the US wants things to slow down, they could stop issuing I-171H.
By the way in regards to God-he will be busy this weekend fighting the evil one in Venezuela!! So you will have to forgive him if he seems busy.

Is PGN the Central Authority? If that is the case, I'll never be at that point 30 days after the law goes into effect. Would love some clarification. I also suspect a number of PAPs will be in the same boat. The process (understandably so) simply does move that quickly.

This a supplement to my recent post. In doing a little research, I see that the DOS is also considered the U.S. Central Authority (at least that is how the close their correspondence). So...maybe we just need our I171 registered? PLEASE let that be the case. I'm as far as having a child referred and POA "almost" filed.

Folks,

The provision to be in process reads to me as being very liberal. Registering looks to be little more than filling out a form or providing some other legal document to show that the case has been started. There is nothing attaching it to being at the current PGN phase. If anything, it seems to me to a safeguard for those not yet in PGN. It sounds to me just that the Central Authority, Bienestar, wants documentation so that they can have a database of who is grandfathered. The 30 day thing is fair to me otherwise it could lead to abuse of the effective date.

For those of you out of PGN right now or soon, I think this should have no impact on you as your adoptions are completed (assuming the birthmom has signed off and the protocolo has been issued).

To all, once you have a new birth certificate following PGN, you are done with the Guatemalan side. The adoption is complete, fully registered, and the child has your name. True you still need a passport but that should be no issue.

Sandi - part of the Hague is that each country must specify a central authority as being the body governing adoptions. For the US, it is our DOS. That has nothing to do with Guatemala. Your I171H means nothing so far as any adoption is concerned. The I171H is merely the US government saying that they approve you to adopt some child.

It is not 100% clear what needs to be done to be able to register once this takes place, assuming this law is passed and enacted as currently posted. NO cases can be registered now. This is a law proposal that is being voted on, not a new rule!

Much thanks to Brian, Robert and others for posting the info, link, and translation. That's a cool thing about Guatadopt - we're a community!!!

I hope that seeing the grandfather clause in writing brings some peace of mind to those of you in-process. Despite the temptation to say "I told you so" (okay, I said it...), I understand how hard it has been to lay faith that it was going to happen (once again assuming this law is passed). Honestly, there never was a legitimate threat. PAP's emotions were played big time by our government and moreso the media. And it was a red herring that successfully kept the debate off of whether laws like this are protect children or make martyrs of them.

So I encourage everyone to now take a step back and learn about what the Hague has done to children worldwide. YOUR future children may be blessed with a permanent loving family, but because of the Hague thousands upon thousands of children around the globe are not so fortunate. As adoptive parents through ICA we all have an obligation to fight this and do all we can to get those in power to re-evaluate how the Hague is being implemented by sending countries and try to reform those laws so that the Hague can do what it was intended to - create simpler, more standardized, ethical, transparent adoptions. In addition, we need to support any efforts that can be made to help Guatemala implement this law in a manner that does not shut its doors to families opening their homes and hearts beyond geo-political borders.

Peace,

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Thanks Brian and Robert!

Kevin, thank you for always having the level-head. As you know this has been a frightening few months for the PAPs and the children if they understood what was happening. You and this group have been wonderful and I really appreciate the support everyone gives each other. THANK YOU!!!!

I just did a quick read of the law. It is in legal speak and my Spanish if far from fluent. And please anyone correct anything I have misinterpreted. But some things of interest:
1.) Singles are permitted to adopt. BUT, it says this is in the "exception" when it is clearly in the best interests in the child. I'll discuss what this could mean when I get into its implementation
2.) Biological family unification is given priority but it didn't come across as hard core. Domestic families next. Then ICA - this is straight out of the Hague and CRC and no surprise
3.) The biological parent(s) must keep the child for six weeks
4.) Once offered a referal, PAPs have ten days to accept. It may say that you have to do this in Guatemala (someone please translate)
5.) PAPs must visit and stay with the child for a "socialization" period of at least five days. If #4 above says it must be in person, it's not clear to me if that could be on the same trip as this socialization period.
6.) Grandfather clause is there as has been posted in the comments here. But I figured that if I didn't say it here some folks would worry. It's there!
7.) I don't see that it explicitly permits private foster care though I also see ways it could be permitted. PLEASE Guatemala, find a way to keep foster care. The cuidadoras are true heros! How about allow the hogares that are registered to hire foster families and have the legal obligation to ensure proper care and training?
8.) PINA law applies. Part of the relinquishment process is for it to be declared that child's human right to a family has been violated.

As with all law proposals, this one could be enacted in a manner that keeps adoptions viable. BUT, it all comes down to how it is implemented and the resources given for the new system. In other countries, that has been a huge "but" and the systems have essentially shut down.

An example is the singles thing. That provision of the law could be interpreted and implemented stringently. The "exceptions" could be, for example, only in situations where a birthmother passes away and her single sister wishes adopt the child. Or it could be applied more liberally, allowing special needs children to be adopted by singles. Or it could be even more liberal to say that if there's a child waiting and no married couple in queue, then a single person could adopt the child.

It is in how the law is implemented and interpreted by the central authority that will say how they attempt biological family unification or to first try to find a domestic family. That could be done by saying no child can be referred for years following relinquishment, or it could be done to say that if there is no domestic family in queue at the time of relinquishment the child can be immediately referred for intercountry adoption.

Some things missing are any budget for the new system as well as a system to make it easy for women to enter the system. They have to go before the Central Authority as I read it. But does that mean they can only register their intent to relinquish in Guatemala City?

I do not know if this law will be challenged legally. I imagine it will but who knows. If it goes into effect, I beg for all parties that have been involved in this heated adoption issue to let tempers cool, have agendas disappear, and adopt a pragmatic child-centric perspective. There are many reasons why women in Guatemala do not believe it is in their child's best interest to stay with them. This is sad but true. There is no precedent of a culture of domestic adoption in Guatemala. Hopefully that will change. These children deserve not to be victims and to thrive in a loving family environment somewhere on Mother Earth's soil. Remember that when it comes to race, we are all part of the human race. That which we share is far greater than the miles that separate the pieces of Mother Earth's soil which we inhabit.

Peace,

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

To L and other posters asking questions:
Many of your questions can be answered immediately if you log onto our forum. We have threads from I-171H renewals, fingerprinting, PA to Pink and everything in between. We have staff and moderators available. If your question is of a private nature and you wish to keep it confidential, you can email one of our staff.
Marie and the Guat Team

Kevin-
I cannot thank you enough for your tireless efforts! Thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!

To Chris:

I just received my electronic "pink" this week. It was a bit painful process but that is another story (5 weeks from confirmed receipt of 2nd DNA). My appointment is only 4 business days from receipt of the "pink" - get ready to fly as soon as you get it as it appears you won't get much notice right now!

regards

I should have said before - thanks Kevin. Sounds like the law sets up a bunch of guidelines, leaving the details to those responsible for implementation.

Kevin,
Thank you so much for all of your work. You are a voice of reason and quality information for us. I am thinking about all the singles out there. If you are single and grandfathered in, does that "trump" the singles "exception" law or is the grandfather only apply to marrried couples?
thinking of all of us during this rocky road.
Cameron

Singles are grandfathered as well. The exception thing is only for new cases after the law.

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

I just want to say that I think as adoptive parents or future adoptive parents we should be supporting one another. Everyone needs to make the best decision for their family and I think everyone wants the best for the children in Guatemala. I was disappointed to see some of the posts listed.

I am currently on a waiting list to receive a referral when referrals start again so the new law will affect me. Anyway, I am concerned about the biological parents needing to keep the child for 6 weeks since they may not have resources to take care of a child and I am also concerned that foster care might stop. I did not see anything mentioned about January 1 being the implementation date or April 1. Thanks for keeping us updated.
Melissa

Thanks to the Guatadopt team, especially Kevin! I am grateful for your hard work and giving us an opportunity to hear about things as they happen. I would be entirely lost without your website! I check it every morning! I feel confident that our daughter will come home...hopefully sooner than later!!!

But, to be honest I am more concerned and saddened about the children yet to born and the biological parents and families...please keep us posted as to what we can do to ensure the best for all the children who will need loving families, in Guatemala...or any country for that matter! I am more than happy to do my part! The children all over the world need us! The adoption world has become a very difficult situation...too long, too many requirements (like China), too many children in orphanages, too many weeks in country to adopt (a friend of mine spent 5 weeks total in Ukraine in two trips). There needs to be SOMETHING that makes more sense than this!! The children are waiting for us...
Thank you!

The JCICS update 11/26 which indicates the 'final vote' wouldn't happen in the regular session also raises concern that Berger 'might veto' the bill if ultimately passed while he's in office. Any insight on that issue? Thanks. And again, thanks for all the hard work, time, and effort, which keeps us all up-to-date.

Kevin, thanks for all your efforts and the others who helped with translations etc. How wonderful to be able to come here and have this at our fingertips.

To those just starting out, really, its a shame that our government won't stop you now, but at some point they will or the Guatemalan system will, and then it will be a horrific experience. April is just 5 short months away and for the best interest of all the children, people need to use their heads and wait it out. In my humble opinion, it is being done to "beat the system" and for self-centric reasons. Please no flames, I've earned my opinion the hard way, as PAP's who started out 14 months ago and wish they had waited until the Hague was implemented. Still in process today with both children. This is not the express lane.

Kevin,
Thanks for all of your hard work trying to keep all of us adoptive parents sane as we wait for decisions to be made. My question is: What happens to cases that are still in process at the US Hague implementation date in April? Does the Adoption Law grandfather clause apply to this as well, or will we all be on pins and needles again as we wait to hear whether in-process cases will be grandfathered in or not?
Tammy

It's sad that our own State department not only does not represent the best interests of US citizens, but also promotes policies that are clearly not in the best interests of Guatemalan Children.

So what is the motivation of our Guatemalan ambassador? Let me guess.
1. He and the embassy are lazy, and wish they had less to do. Removing international adoption from their agenda would remove more than 80% of their work load (estimate provided by the ambassador himself).

2. Our current foreign policy establishment is racist (doubtful) or xenophobic (more likely). The current anti-immigration mania in Washington has spread to the State department.

3. There is an unspoken opinion within the DOS that international adoption is not only a pain in the butt to administer, but also an easy bone to throw to the UN.

4. Throwing international orphans under the bus might just improve the prospects for domestic African American children who are currently in foster care.

5. Last, but not least, the National Association of Black Social Workers has a long track record of animosity toward inter-racial and intercultural adoptions. Their misguided idea is that transracial and transcultural adoptions amount to "cultural genocide". Could it be that Ms Rice has appointed some of these political Neanderthals to the orphan section of DOS?

I don't know why the DOS and our embassy in Guatemala are acting in such a hateful way toward the generosity and love offered by American adoptive parents toward children who face a dismal future if the Ortega law is implemented as currently configured. But I bet one or more of the above explanations are likely.

DOS has stated clearly that on our end, anyone who has sent in an I600A before the Hague goes into force is considered a non-Hague adoption by the US. So our implementation of the Hague will have no impact.

Kevin
Guatdopt.com

Kevin, does the DOS mean before Hague in the US or Guatemala?

Hello, I'm wondering what the 30 days quote is. Does that mean 30 days after the date that they announce this new law or 30 days before the 31st which is not possible for those of us that haven't accepted a referral. Thanks for any help on this.

I know all cases are different, but how long does it usually take after Dossier is in country to hear something about DNA? Who usually contacts you? I also wanted to say in short.... I am sorry for causing any upset by sharing my heart. I'm not a very experienced blogger and in no way meant to offend anyone. My heart went out to Nancy as I know how difficult a decision it is. I just get a little excited when talking about my faith. I re-read what I wrote and realized it did sound judgemental and I didn't mean it to. Please know...that I find inspiration in all of you and your journeys and appreciate Kevin and Kelly's efforts to keep us informed. I mean this sincerely. I will continue to follow and stick to the facts and information.

Here is a notice, from the Guatemalan Congress website, of the 3rd reading of the proposed adoption law, scheduled for December 11.

http://www.congreso.gob.gt/gt/ver_noticia.asp?id=4501

I was in a hurry when I posted my comment about the grandfather clause. Of course, the Bill (not the law) is posted on the Guatemalan Congressional website. Also, the 30 day periods begins when the law takes effect, not when it's passed. As Robert pointed out, the law is set to take effect, if approved on the 34d reading, on December 31.

Kevin,

Here is translation of Article 44 about the Socialization Period. As it reads, prospective adoptive parents do not need to be in Guatemala to accept a referral.

"Article 44. Socialization Period. Before the socialization period those adopting must present in writing their express acceptance of the child referral in a period no longer than ten days from the respective notification.

"Once the acceptance is received by the Central Authority, this [entity] will authorize a period, no shorter than five working days, of co-living and personal socialization between those applying [to adopt] and the child, the same for national as well as international adoptions.

"The Central Authority will have to inform the judge that the period of co-living and socialization has begun."

On a different note, I noticed that few people have claimed that Bienestar will be the Central Authority. According to the bill, that is not the case. It is an automous entity whose board (consejo directivo) will be composed on three representatives, one from the supreme court, one from the Secretariat of Bienestar Social, and one from ministry of foreign relations.

To all

Hopefully the u.s. embassy should receive the results of the 2nd dna test today. Does anyone know what the average time is to get notification from the u.s. embassy of an appointment time (electronic pink slip)?

Timelines regarding PINK are posted on the guatadopt.com forum.
Marie, Guatadopt.com