Guatadopt has been told that a meeting between PGN, the Guatemalan Supreme Court, Bienestar, Foreign Affairs, Unicef, and the US Embassy is taking place today in hopes of officially clarifying what "in process" will be defined as. If we learn about anything, we'll post it.
The ADA has a new update on their website on the same topic: http://www.adaguatemala.org/English/news/.
Here is the DOS statement about the law passing: http://travel.state.gov/family/adoption/intercountry/intercountry_3903.html
Please read on for some other statements from US Consul General John Lowell...
The ADA's post has some great commentary. But it does appear as though there has been some confusion about the US DOS's position on in-process following prior JCICS statements that may have been misconstrued.
Guatadopt has personally been assured by the DOS that their position is and always has been to have in-process defined as early in the process as possible. This does not seem to be something that anyone is fighting. So my message to you is that anyone not yet in PGN should not be freaking out. Exactly what that will mean we shall see. But I am guessing that having a registered POA may end up being the cut off.
Here is what John Lowell told me about the DOS position:
Our argument has always been that the Guatemalan government should define the earliest possible point in the adoption procedure as the starting point for an 'in-process' case, and I have made that argument regualrly and with anybody I can think of who might be involved in that decision. PGN tells me there is a legal basis for that early point and that is exactly what we are recommending. We were, at one point, worried that the decision might be made only to protect cases that had already entered PGN, but I am relieved that there now seems to be legal precedent for a much earlier point.
On Tuesday,, when the law was passed I e-mailed John Lowell about its passage with the subject lie of "Congrats". Here is what I wrote: "Well, looks like the law was passed. Congrats are half sarcasm, half sincerity. This law scares me for children, though I know why it happened. And please, if there is any way we can help to help Guatemala make this thing workable and clean, let me know. I hate what the world of adoptions has come to. No matter where one lies on the issue the sad truth is that it is a shame children are caught in these types of things."
It took me a few days to get an okay to post his reply but I now have that. While I have to say that it is not my natural tendency to trust anyone in government, I think our readers will appreictae this and I do take Lowell on his word that this is where his head is, though I ma not optimistic a workable system can be achieved under this law. So here was his reply:
No, the approval of the law is something that was a long time coming (by at least one count, 18 years), and is indeed a critical step forward. That certainly doesn't mean that the problems are now all resolved, rather that the focus changes significantly. We'll be working now to secure the simplest possible registration process for "in-process" adoption cases, with the earliest possible starting point, and then to support the development of a new adoption process that works efficiently and in the interests of the children who need permanent families.
On a last note, I have to say that I do believe a system for registering cases will be worked out. I believe that all interested parties are aware of the challenges and that the fact that you do have so many groups talking to one another will make it happen (plus they know the media, Guatadopt, and PAPs will be all over it if they don't). This is not me defending this new law, which I will not do. This is not me defending any of the parties mentioned above. This is me merely saying once again that the goal of DOS,, UNICEF, Bienestar, etc has been to stop new cases from starting and to allow those started to be completed. Outside of humanitarian concerns, there is a ton money and legal precendent, possibly even under CAFTA, to consider here and it is in nobody's personal self interest to stop in-process cases.
Good to hear a wise and reassuring voice, as usual, Kevin. Thanks.
Reba
I just want everything clarified so we can move forward. The not knowing is the most difficult part of this process.
Thank you Kevin!
Posted by: Brenda at December 14, 2007 03:06 PMStill trying to understand why Unicef would have a say so as to what in process is. They are a charitable organization (supposedly, not part of the Guatemalan Govt or a political entity). I hope they plan on clearing up the 30 days to register in process cases with CNA which does not yet exist.
Posted by: karen at December 14, 2007 03:22 PMThank you Kevin for all your hard work. You comments and advice have really been so helpful to everyone who is waiting to get the children out. Do not know what we would have done without Guatadopt.
Posted by: Janet at December 14, 2007 03:51 PMSorry, but I have to ask. When does the definition of "in process" END? Should those of us who have PGN approval, but have not yet obtained the new BC (or even been registered in the Book of Adoptions by the Civil Registry), still have our attorneys register us in this new "Central Authority"? I hope that the definition of "in process" has both a beginning and end point. Thank you!
Posted by: Kris at December 14, 2007 03:55 PMThanks for this real piece of information from someone at the table. What a help for those of us whose cases will go past Dec. 31, 2007.
Your analysis seems spot on.
Posted by: Nick B at December 14, 2007 04:11 PMI just heard the meeting was postponed til next week because many key players weren't able to attend today.
Posted by: Jennifer at December 14, 2007 04:17 PMokay, what does THIS mean?? (from the DOS)
"After April 1, 2008, the date that the Hague Convention goes into force for the United States, we will not be able to approve new adoptions from Guatemala if the Government of Guatemala has not put into practice an adoption process that meets its Convention obligations."
"Approve new adoptions" means what - accept filings of new cases, issue visa pre-approvals, issue final visas, issue I-171Hs for Guatemala - what??
I feel like it is constantly 'one step forward then two steps back' in terms of any clarification from our government OR theirs...
And Kris, if I were you I'd sure be getting my case registered. Better safe than sorry!!
Lisa
Posted by: Lisa at December 14, 2007 04:28 PMI'd still like to know about the 30 day registering with the CA. Is it on Jan. 31 or when the CA is up and running? Erik
Posted by: Erik at December 14, 2007 04:31 PMOh Jennifer, don't say that...I REALLY wanted to know today!!!!
But I do feel slightly encouraged by the new JCICS post from today...
Jen
Posted by: Jen at December 14, 2007 05:04 PMWhen I first read what Susana Luraca wrote, my heart sunk...AGAIN!
Fortunately, it "appears" as though all of us "should" be ok, I am so GRATEFUL for guatadopt!
Praying...
Another parent hoping to be out of PGN before year end (6.5 weeks and counting) wondering if we will be safe at that point. Any thoughts
Posted by: Andrea at December 14, 2007 05:22 PMWell you were right Jennifer...my agency just confirmed that the meeting didn't happen. They said probably next week. :(
Posted by: Jen at December 14, 2007 05:49 PMWill in-process cases be put on hold until they are able to begin the 30 day registry with CNA?
Posted by: Shanski at December 14, 2007 06:11 PMkevin,
I just wanted to say thank you for all of your hard work, this site really helps us adoptive parents understand what is really going on. lets hope this is all good news for those who are waitng to brign our children home
Thank you for your research. The issue that seems to concern me is that the DOS is stating one position, but the US Embassy's lack of quick movement of giving PAs contradicts it. Is there anyway of getting US Embassy in Guate to issue the PAs quicker? We have been waiting for some time.
Posted by: Liz at December 14, 2007 10:10 PMGuatadopt, thank you for all you do for the children of Guatemala!
Posted by: Tara Santilli at December 15, 2007 01:52 AMKevin, We can not thank you enough for all your hard work and insight provided to us. We are in the process of adopting our second child. May God bless you always.
John and Sara
Posted by: John and Sara at December 15, 2007 09:01 AMLatest for Join Council:
http://www.jcics.org/Guatemala.htm
thank you Marie and Kevin for this web site....I feel like we have a community of support. It means so much. God Bless you!
Kevin,
Thank you for staying on top of DOS and holding them accountable. The Adoption Law has many limitations and flaws, which must be addressed in the next session of the Guatemalan Congress. Let's hope that the newly elected Congress and President in Guatemala are more favorable to adoption than the outgoing government has been.
Posted by: Robert at December 15, 2007 04:08 PMDoes anyone have any hope left that they could possibly say all immigration approved families could still have a chance to be grandfathered. We didn't accept a referral and we would love to still be included but the 31st is almost here and we don't want to take a chance until we know we are safe. Any hope out there? or do you feel that we have been given up on?
Posted by: Trish at December 15, 2007 06:42 PMTrish - The I171H has nothing to do with any child in Guatemala. It is only the US gov approving its citizens to adopt. So I really doubt that would be used as a standard.
Lisa - I think DOS would have to mean that they would not be able to accept any new files. The CIS will continue to accept and issue I171Hs. For example, you could send in an I600A to adopt from any country in the world. They will issue you an I171H, even if that country doesn't allow adoption. With that said, what they are likely to do is not accept anything at the embassy contrary to Guatemala law. They may require proof of registration to do anything on cases. Or at least before they would issue a preapproval, DNA tets approval, etc.
Kevin
Guatadopt.com
It is time to hold UNICEF and all organizations that fought the war and won the war to end international adoptions from Guatemala to the US, accountable.
We must work together to improve the lives of the children and mothers that will be left "out in the cold" by this inappropriate law. A reporter just came back from Guatemala and interviewed a mother who was caring for an infant and is pregnant. She is currently giving her infant sugar water. She said that one of the children will die for sure because she cannot take care of both...
We families, PAPs, and human beings must call on UNICEF to act. They won the "war" ---well, now it is time to fulfill their obligation as a charitable organization. They must protect and care for the poor women and children of Guatemala as they proclaim they do.
UNICEF and the Guatemalan government let's see you put your money where your mouth is... protect the innocent.
Feed, clothe, house, and educate Guatemala NOW.
Posted by: Ann at December 15, 2007 10:39 PMAnn, I think that is the real issue here. How are the children of Guatemala going to be cared for in the short and long term.
Kevin, do we have any accurate information on the existing orphanages and how they are supported? Are they all supported by attorneys and their PAP?
Is their an independent organization in Guatemala that supports only orphaned children? Similar to Half the Sky and Love Without Boundaries in China? Maybe it is time we as AP take up the call to start such an organization.
Kathy
Posted by: Kathy at December 16, 2007 08:36 AMAlong with other grandfathering criteria JCICS is recommending the "the Acta de Requerimiento had been issued". This means "act of requirement" in English - but requirement of what? And how/where would it have been issued? I've googled 'til I'm out of ideas. Anyone know?
The Acta de Requeriento may be the document that was added to the equation months ago. I ma not sure but it would make sense as this should be happening early on.
http://www.guatadopt.com/archives/000628.html
On hogars... The ones that are adoption focused get their funds almost exclusively through adoption. But there are many others, church based ususally, that operate out of donations who don't do many adopoptions.
Kevin
Guatadopt.com
Kevin
Guatadopt
Does anyone know more about the Acta de Requeriento? When/how is it obtained? Is is given when your POA is registered or when DNA Auth is given? I haven't heard of this...
Posted by: beth at December 17, 2007 01:08 PMThe new adoprtion law has limitations and requires amendments. It doesn't provide resources for orphanages, nor foster care for future adoptive children, it requires biological mothers to keep their babies for 6 weeks before being permitted to adopt; poverty, even extreme poverty, is not considered a sufficient reason in itself to give up a child for adoption. Domestic families will be given priority over foreign families when children do become available for adoption.These conditions effectively block adoptions in many situations and urgently need to be revisited in the next session of the Guatemala Congress in January. There is a newly elected Congress and President in Guatemala, which some believe may bring a new attitude and climate toward adoption.
The U.S. has been pressuring Guatemala for years to pass adoption legislation to administer oversight of the process and prevent corruption, which is well-intentioned. That being said, if inter-country adoption is going to be limited in the future, then the children must be provided for in other ways. Foster care, orphanages, medical care and nutrition are also currently lacking in Guatemala; in fact Guatemala has the highest rate of child malnutrition in the Western Hemisphere. In all good conscience, since our country helped bring about new legislation limiting adoption in Guatemala, it is now our moral obligation as a country to help Guatemala provide resources for their future generations of children.
I belive that those in favor of inter-country adoption should contact their representatives in Congress, expressing that the U.S. needs to provide assistance to the children of Guatemala and ensure that inter-country adoption will continue in Guatemala in the future. Their was a call to action and outreach to Congress in order that in-process cases be grandfathered. Congress responded and assembled a bipartisan coalition in support of inter-country adoption, which lobbied the U.S. and Guatemalan governments to continue in-process cases. The same should now be done to protect future adoptions as well.
I was just informed that the US Embassy has reduced the number of lawyers accepted per day to 20. Has anyone else heard this. I PA has been ready for pickup since 10/7/07 - Repeatly lawyer was unable to get access and today the violence and chaos occurred in line - She had number 4 but was pushed and slapped.
Posted by: Stephanie at December 17, 2007 02:16 PMRobert, I believe JCICS is waiting to get more information and to meet with the new president before they initiate a new call to action. I'm under the impression that their concerns are for the future of adoptions and the care of the children, not just 'in process' cases.
Posted by: cmg at December 17, 2007 03:16 PMI was there and that is exactly what I heard!!! So frustrating! AND, even as a U.S. Citizen, I couldn´t get a number!!! And, I was there way early in the morning! I´m sooooooo frustrated with the Embassy. I´ve been down there 5 times in the last week and keep getting told to go to a different line or come back the next day. And, yes it was a bit scary, people all raised their hands trying to get a number and the woman passing them out said the security was coming to calm things down. It´s really sad.
Posted by: Tiff at December 17, 2007 04:07 PMhttp://www.prensalibre.com/pl/2007/diciembre/17/190750.html
Posted by: Susana Luarca at December 17, 2007 06:36 PMWhat is going on with our Embassy? I have emailed them twice over the course of weeks to verify Cable 37--no response. Then to hear of the chaos and the inefficiency of processing people--what is the deal? Is it always like this and we just don't hear about it or what? I expect better. They know to require order and how to work efficiently--DO IT! People are back to waiting a week for Pink--something that they state should only take up to 48 hrs--and when they get it, the appt is 2-3 weeks out--what is up--have we not waited long enough? Just throw some salt in our wounds. I hear them loud and clear- they don't want adoptions to continue--but process the ones that you have allowed to start! This is crazy. Thanks for letting me vent..
Posted by: frustrated at December 17, 2007 07:32 PMI just read the article Susana posted the link for. I hope and pray my Spanish rusty and I am misunderstanding it! If anyone can translate and give some insight... please help!
Posted by: ap at December 17, 2007 07:32 PMOK, that's a scary article. Who is PDH and what does this mean.
Posted by: Jen at December 17, 2007 07:36 PMWhat does the article that Susana posted mean? Does this mean that in-process cases will stop until Dec. 31st, or that new cases can not have POA registered? With a grandfather clause in the approved law, it doesn't seem logical that PGN would not be able to process cases for the rest of the year.. The translations of this article are not clear - Kevin, Susana, anyone??
Posted by: Shannon at December 17, 2007 07:54 PMSusana,
So what does your post mean? I read that PDH has filed a lawsuit against PGN to stop any in-process cases from preceding prior to the Dec 31 law changes. Is this true?
Posted by: Bob at December 17, 2007 09:32 PMCan someone shed some light on Susana's link to the Prensa Libre article? Even with my poor translation skills it seems very bad.
Posted by: bridget at December 17, 2007 10:44 PMKevin,
If the DOS is hoping to make the criteria for "in-process" simple, then why (according to the ADA) is the USCIS down there playing games and rejecting SO many of the 40 cases that are heard each day? I believe the ADA on this one. Why doesn't the DOS straighten out the USCIS? Aren't they related, representing the same country?
Bethie
I agree, what is going on down there??? We are waiting for PA and are on day 68 and can not get USE to respond to our emails... It seem like things are being held up... and no answers why!!!
Posted by: Kim at December 17, 2007 11:37 PMIn 2003, after the Hague Convention was ruled unconstitutional, Rolando Morales Alvarado, the Procurador of Human Rights, tried to stop all adoptions in process and the already adopted children from leaving the country, by filing an amparo, that was flatly refused. He is doing it again. We are confident that the Constitutional Court, even thought it is formed now by different magistrates, will reject it. He has no business doing such atrocity. He is or has been a UNICEF consultant.
Susana Luarca
Thank you Susana for your insight. We were stuck in the Hague mess of 2003 and are now in process again! Interestingly, I don't remember Sr. Morales doing this back then--but thank God the CC refused it and I pray they do the same this time. I think back then we were just all so overjoyed with the CC overruling the Hague that we couldn't even see straight! Thank you for all of your hard work for the children. Please do not stop. I know it must be tiring and we don't know half of what you have to deal with--but please press on. I pray you have a strong group around you and that all of you can move forward to find some viable solution for the children. I will continue to pray for you and the children of Guatemala. Please keep us posted.
Posted by: frustrated at December 18, 2007 08:00 AMFor some reason, I am just not able to access the Prensa Libre link. Any ideas? It's a little unnerving to see everyone's response to it--maybe I don't want to see it!
Posted by: LeAnn at December 18, 2007 08:30 AMHelp, what can we do about the US Embassy taking in only 20 attys. per day. This is both counter-productive and counter-intuative for allowing in process cases to continue.
Who do we need to talk to??? This is ridiculous.
Posted by: Melinda at December 18, 2007 08:45 AMI know this law passed the third reading, but doesn't it still have to go through amendment phase? Doesn't it have to actually be finalized and signed into law? Isn't the current process the presiding law until those things happen? Isn't this why the first Ortega Law isn't the currently presiding law? So what happens if these things don't happen this year, as Congress is out of session, and I don't hear anyone talking about coming back for amendments? Can someone give a 101 rundown on how a law becomes a law and what happens in the interm, really?
Posted by: Scrunchie at December 18, 2007 01:02 PMScrunchie,
Lawmaking 101 is at http://www.congreso.gob.gt/gt/proceso_legislativo.asp
Right now the law has passed all the steps at Congress and must be at the President's office, who will order (with glee!) to publish it in the official newspaper, any day now. It will become effective on December 31st. 2007.
The diference with the other Ortega Law is that the former was never approved by articles. Just had the third reading and never made it back from the drawing table. This one was approved under the strict scrutiny of the US Consul, who sat during the session, surrounded by other diplomats, with a list of the congressmen, taking notes of who was there and who was not, and after his offers to cancel US visas, his presence did the effect of blocking the view of all the congressmen to all the violations of the Constitution that the law has, not to mention to the lack of provisions regarding the child care and other details like those.
Only time will tell that there are much worse things than being adopted by loving families. It is a pity that to find out the truth, many young lives will be wasted.
Susana Luarca, ADA
Posted by: Susana Luarca at December 18, 2007 02:52 PMKevin, I agree w/Bethie...why is the USE saying all these good things to the press and to you, but then doing everything in their power to hinder in process cases at the Embassy?? They haven't been issuing pre-approvals (43 days & counting for me; others are well over 60 days), there's a lot of talk about them reducing the lawyers to 20, down from 40...what's going on?? Are they waiting for something?? Are they trying to delay us?? And if so, for what reason?? I understand them not wanting thousands of PAPs flying down to sign POA...but they vowed to help those of in process. Now why aren't they doing it.
Posted by: Jen at December 18, 2007 04:39 PMEchoing all the above commentary... It seems like we should be calling and writing again, but to whom? Tell us who to contact and we'll all be on it ASAP. John Lowell? The Embassy? Our reps/senators again? Thanks for any info...
Posted by: LeAnn at December 18, 2007 07:03 PMI wish I had the answers to some of these questions.
I'm not sure of why things are taking so long with the embassy. Reducing the number of new cases they'll allow - that I get whether I agree with it or not. But why are PAs taking so long?
One obvious answer is increased scrutiny being given to cases. I think at least to a certain extent this is true. But is that the sole reason? I haven't an answer there.
From my knowledge, they have no reason to be stalling cases. MAYBE, they want it seeming as ugly as possible until Jan 1 to discourage anyone from jumping in. I am grasping for straws here.
Government is a strange and ugly beast; albeit the dictionary definition of a necessary evil. Good intentions mix with bureaucracy, politics, processes, and a lack of properly allocated resources to mess anything up.
Realize that when you post here, your voice is likely being heard by someone in the government. They do read this site, though I don't know how religiously.
I'm afraid that's about the best I can do...
Kevin
Guatadopt.com
Posted by: Kevin at December 18, 2007 11:27 PM
http://forums.adoption.com/guatemala-adoption/320256-use-mess-questions.html
Someone asked me to post my experiences here in detail, so I am posting the thread to discussions going on at adoption.com concerning how the Embassy has basically turned it's back on US families.
Basically, I started my adoption process in July 2006, I was matched with twin girls, through a US adoption agency with whom I had to sign a confidentiality agreement with. I had suspicion from pictures that they were sick.
After getting reports that they were healthy and gaining weight, I chose to go to foster them because the pictures told me that the report was not true.
My whole experiences timeline is about 20 pages, so I will sum it up here to the specifics of the part that the Embassy played in my whole ordeal.
First, the day I was to get my twins to foster, they never showed and I was told that one of my little girls, that morning, went to the hospital!
I did not get to see them. It was very sad and heartbreaking. I was given a new referral and told that since I could only adopt one baby, the adoption was paid in full and also that they would hurry to get the adoption completed.
At this little girls DNA, the facilitator told me that he wanted $22,000 more US dollars, please remember that I had already paid $20,000 for the initial fees to adopt twin girls. I had to get a loan for this money, sell my car and many other personal belongings.
To sum this up, I had to go to the Embassy and report this. They told me that many families were having similar problems, this was back in February of 2007. I was told they could not help me or even protect me. I was told that I had to deal with this in the baby's own country.
So, I had to file criminal charges against my facilitator, who continued to lie at each hearing and almost took our case to the supreme court. He, at the final hearing said that the money I had given for the facilitation of the adoption was a donation.
The Public Ministry, knew he was lying and forced him to give us the paperwork for the baby and my dossier back.
Thank God that justice prevailed in Guatemala's Public Ministry for us, cause this man threatened me, that he had someone who wanted my baby! and we knew he was trying to sell her.
To sum this up, we spent the next 8 months searching for the birth-mom again for family court, because the man would not give us her contact information as he was retaliating against us and still lying, with lie after lie for 8 months of excuses of why he would not give us the information, which the Public Ministry ordered him to give us and help us finish the adoption.
Finally, we find the birth mom and she went to family court and we got the custody papers from the courts and according to the US law we are suppose to be able to get the baby home on a US Visa4 to re-adopt in the US, because every day here is dangerous, but, now the US Embassy will not even hear us. We submitted the paperwork they requested to get a Visa4, so we could finish the adoption in the US, cause we have had physical custody of the baby since days after birth for over a year now and we have the mother giving us custody, the Public Ministry giving us/our attorney custody and the Family court giving us/our attorney custody.
We waited in the line the day they switched to 20 numbers and we could not get a number, so they told us to go to window 1 at 9:00 a.m. because that is when they give orange to those who have all their paperwork in.
The lady took my paper and told me to come back the next day with it translated and then I could get orange, but I came back the next day and she said my Family Court paperwork was not correct!!! BUT, she would not tell me why or how to fix it.
I was told to get a number, basically to get in line before the sun comes up with my baby and fight to keep the Guatemalan attorneys and their runners from cutting in front of me and fight to get one of the precious 20 numbers that was being handed out. All, so that I, a US citizen could ask my Embassy a question.
The previous day, I did get help, but that came at a huge price. I begged to talk to someone in adoptions, cause me and my baby are still in danger from the corruption. I asked to see someone in security, who had helped me before to know what to do if we were in danger again.
Finally, Mr. Roma came and told me that security was too busy. He, then began yelling at me, with an elevated voice and harsh tones, this was inside office 10 which is also window 10. He told me how dare I come to the Embassy to demand a visa. I tried to talk and he verbally abused me again by yelling at me again and basically telling me to shut up. I was in shock as he continued to yell at me and tell me that I was stupid and knew nothing of adoptions.\
Now, I have a masters in Psychology and almost finished a second in School Psychology, so I am very trained in Psychotherapy and understanding how to calm down an angry person. So, I let him continue the verbal abuse on me and let him finish saying that he did not care about the congressman. (I'm going to stop her for a moment to explain this, because I feel that it is very important, as an American, we have a voice and our voice is through those who we elect to office. We all know that the Embassy has dropped the ball, has known of the corruption and gave no warning years ago, and when the warning came they did not warm families of the real dangers. AND, on top of that they did not warn families that the Embassy would be of no help to them!!! So, families contact their congressman for help, so for this man to say that he does not care what the congressman say!!! Is horrible.)
Back to the verbal abuse I suffered at the Embassy. He continued to yell at me saying, he had nothing on my case. He then allowed me to talk and I told him I filed for my I600 back in July of 2006 and that in fact my finger prints have already expired while I've been stuck in Guatemala, unable to redo them. I will give him some credit in that he did give me an appointment to redo my finger prints at the Embassy and that he did tell me that my custody from the Public Ministry was not from a competent court! That, I don't get/understand, cause, I thought the Public Ministry was a court, our case was seen before the judge and almost went to supreme court. So, anyways, he wanted a competent court!?! So, the Family Court gave me the paperwork needed and I took that to the Embassy, fighting again to even talk to someone and submit my paperwork.
The lady there told me that, I had to get the paperwork professionally translated and then they would give me orange for 2nd DNA, however when I came back the next day, they told me that the paperwork was not right, BUT refused to tell me what was wrong or how to fix it! AND that I had to come the next day and get a number if I wanted to ask a question!
They know that it is very difficult and dangerous for a US Citizen with a baby to get in line at the Embassy before the sun comes up and to try and fight with the Guatemalan attorneys just to keep your place in line.
I wrote more of what I saw the 20 plus hours the Embassy had me waiting with my baby for over the course of 5 days, in the thread at adoptions.com. I saw a lot of US families being turned away from their own Embassy. These are not the families that are getting their visa, but others who are having problems with their adoptions. There were even some people just trying to get back to the US and were unable and fighting to hold their ground in line, who had unrelated adoption cases, but were being harassed by the Guatemalan attorneys and runners who would walk up to the US Citizens and continue to ask them what number they had, basically, saying you don't have a number, I'm getting in front of you, cause you have no reason to be in this line. One poor guy, for some reason, I don't know had to talk to the Embassy, cause his plane back to the US was leaving at 2:00 that day, and one woman attorney/runner told him repeatedly that he needed to get out of line cause the US Embassy would not help him. She said that line was for adoptions. He said, he has nothing to do with adoptions, just trying to get home, and that is the line he was told to go to. I don't know if he ever got help, cause I was in line in front of him and they told me to go to a different line.
I finally got help and the lady had me go to room 10 to tell me my paperwork was not correct, I told her it was exactly what I was told to bring, she told me she would ask again but I had to wait again, I told her I was going to go public with my story because this was wrong what the Embassy was doing to me, I told her I wanted to talk to the security officer that helped me before because I was afraid for me and my baby girl due to the corruption and what we had already experienced. She told me to go back to the chairs and wait.
We waited for hours again with my precious little girl. We ran out of diapers, I ran out of formula, please know I had gotten more the night before cause they told us we had to stay in town to get in line the next day and of course you cannot leave the Embassy if you want to talk to someone, but, i still ran out cause they kept me there so long, so I gave my baby some water in her bottle, my precious girl was so hungry. I just sat there in the Embassy and started crying, I was so sad that my Embassy had turned it's back on me and so many others, they knew full well of the corruption years ago, I came into this adoption with no warning, I just couldn't handle anymore, so I left to get my little girl some more formula. I was going to get in line this morning but I'm too scared, cause the last time, I had two Guatemalan men approach me wanting me to show them my paperwork. I saw the line sway back and forth as people tried to keep their place. I asked the lady in charge and she told me the security was coming to control things. That was the day they started giving out only 20 numbers and I couldn't get one. So, I'm scared to get in that line again. You read the warnings and one that the Embassy has on their site is to stay away from irritated groups of people because they can turn very dangerous and that is exactly what we experienced trying to get a number at the Embassy, just to ask a question or submit paperwork for our case. And, yes again, I am a US citizen born and raised in the USA. I have over 20 years, mostly volunteer working with children in inner city churches and schools in the United States, advocating on their behalf.
Posted by: tiff at December 19, 2007 08:02 AMI am sick and sad at what Tiff has gone through. What the heck is wrong with the people at the US Embassy. It is absolutely APPALLING how US citizens are being treated. I am in shock, criminals are treated better than that.
Tiff I am praying for you and hope that you can get out of there soon with your little girl in tact.
UNBELIEVABLE
Posted by: Karen at December 19, 2007 09:00 AMIf in fact members of the Governments are listening.....I'd like to say a few words:
We all come to adoption for different reasons. Some with infertility issues, some because we cannot stand to see children suffer, some because we just want to expand our families,etc. I do believe however that we have all been chosen through some higher power to choose adoption with the end result of making the world a better place and to reduce suffering however small. (Isn't that what life should be about?)
I wish everyone would put themselves in others shoes - what if your own child were orphaned? Would you want them to spend their life on the streets begging for food and being mistreated or in an orphanage?? No, these are not your children but they have the same feelings as your own and the same rights - to be loved,to feel safe and to have their basic needs met. Please do what is right by these children in whatever way you can as a government official and as a human being.
Thank you,
Janie
Hey Karen,
You think that is bad, during our last visit trip we ran into family that was during the adoption process with a baby who needed open heart surgery. They wanted to get a special visa to bring the baby to the US for the surgery and then bring her back to Guatemala to finish off the adoption.
THE USE denied the special visa.
I always wonder what happen to the family and have not seen them post on Guatadopt.
Re Tiff's story
Sounds to me like the USE is purposely trying to incite negative crowd behavior. Don't they think that we can see through this strategy? The smaller amount of numbers given, the impossibility of correct paperwork, because when questions/clarifications are asked for they are not given, etc. They are creating , and I said "creating" a situation where it is impossible for attnys. to complete their contracts with PAP's, or for US citizens like Tiff to get answers about her own case from her own embassy, and then are standing back and are ready to watch aggression unfold.
What is that?
And contacting our Senators and Reps? My experience in my state is this is a huge waste of time for a huge amount of effort on my part. Guess the days of US citizens having representation from those we elect, and protection from our own embassies are things of the past?
Sad.
USE, DOS, Congress, House---shame on all of you!
Anonymous
Anxiously waiting for my daughter, over 13 months now.
We will travel Christmas Eve to P/U our son with an Embassy appointment date of 1/2/2008 @ 7:15 a.m in the morning. If someone that has just recently returned from Guatemala on a P/U trip could comment on the procedure for making the appointment that would be great. Will we have to stand in this long line? Should I be prepared to fight someone? This roller coaster is moving fast and all we want to do now is get to the end of the ride safely.
Trusting in Him,
Paul
Posted by: Paul at December 20, 2007 01:51 PMHello....we received our PGN approval on Dec 5th. We still do not have our BC and I'm wondering if anyone who reads this has any insite as to WHY? Are cases that have PGN approval still have to stand in line and get one of these 20 numbers they issue? What is going on? I sure could use someone's advise. Thank you so much!
Posted by: Jess at December 20, 2007 02:32 PMPaul, if you have your pink appointment, then that morning you will go and get in a line ousdie with other American families. Make sure you have a blanket for your baby and dress your baby warm, it gets cold. You will stand outside in line for 5-30 minutes, mabye more. This is not the horrible 20 number line, because you already have your appointment. It is also right next to the Embassy door where you go through security. They keep the American families with their visa appointment separated outside by a wall. So you will not have to worry about other people harrasing you. The security officer will allow a few families in at a time, then you will go wait inside the Embassy 10-45 or more, not sure for your name to be called, then, I believe you will be moved two other times through lines, but many times, the family just sits while the attorney does all this. Oh, make sure and bring formula and diapers too and a toy or two. *Jess, if your attorney can get your BC and all the other required paperwork, then they can go to window 1 at 9:00 with a little line and get orange/2nd dna authorization for you. However, if they are having a problem with getting the birth certificate, like many families with birth certificates from certain cities are, than your attorney will have to get a number to ask the Embassy if they can try and get you a visa so you can adopt in the US without the finals/missing BC in Guatemala.
Posted by: tiff at December 21, 2007 12:50 AMPaul,
Our embassy appointment was at 8 a.m. on Dec. 11 It was not bad at all. Thirty-five adoptive families were there that morning for appointments. We were No. 23.
You will wait outside the embassy with other adoptive families for the security guard to let you in. You will need either a small stroller or a sling to carry your baby in. It was cool, so dress appropriately.
The inside of the embassy reminded me of a Department of Motor Vehicles on a busy day. Sparse government building with crowded waiting area. Our lawyer stood in line at the first window with our paperwork, while we waited in the chairs. Then our name was called and we went into a tiny room to be asked a couple questions. Mostly, she wanted to know when we had visited the baby.
Then we waited longer until our named was called. We approached another window where a nice man swore us in and asked us a few questions. Then we were done. Our attorney went back the next day to collect our visa.
It all seemed to flow smoothly. Enjoy your trip!
Debbie/zoe's mom
Posted by: Zoe's mom at December 22, 2007 04:54 PMMy Home Study Agency Just sent this in an email! Thought everyone would like to read it. It looks like the Embassy has heard our crys to help us! Thank YOU :D
"Guatemala has cleared up some of the confusion that has raged over the past few months. The DOS issued a statement that the US Embassy in Guatemala City will officially continue to receive new cases after the Christmas holiday and after the first of the year. They have also implemented a policy of having separate lines for individuals (attorneys) trying to pick up pre-approvals or submit additional documents requested by CIS. The 20 appointments per day are strictly for attorneys submitting new cases."
Posted by: Tiff at December 23, 2007 08:25 PMKevin/anyone, I just received a letter in the mail saying my agency is closing. We are currently in PGN, does anyone know how this will affect our case??? Our agency isn't answering the phone, not returning emails and I'm not sure if I'm ever going to be able to speak with a live person again. Is there anything from them I need as far as documentation goes? I have spoken with several of the other families still in-process and none of us know what to do. Do we need to hire an attorney or another agency, or being that we are this far along can we finish without an agency? Any suggestions would be highly helpful to myself and may other families. Thank you and happy holidays.
Posted by: Lisa at December 30, 2007 07:50 PMOMG! So, so sorry to hear. You do not need your agency, in order to complete your adoption.
BUT, you do need the contact information for the attorney that you signed POA with or contact info for all Guatemalan contacts associated with your case.
Your agency should at least give you this information. The US Embassy in Guatemala will also have the name of your POA attorney in their information for your PA.
You could track him/her down that way. The Embassy gave me that information and I was shocked because I had never heard the name before. The facilitator told me I was signing POA with some other person and the POA was in Spanish which I couldn't read.
Hopefully, their contacts are not shady and corrupt.
Hopefully, the Guatemalan contact will contact you when you are out of PGN and ready to pick up your child.
Hopefully, they will not try and extort you for more money in order to complete your adoption, beyond what was agreed in your contract.
***Now this is a huge concern. If your agency, drops you on your own, and you have to work by yourself with the Guatemalan contact.
That contact may say that they did not have a contract with you!!! And, therefore all the money you paid already was a donation.
This is the trick that the facilitator used with us. Our agency had us signed a severance and confidentiality agreement with them because they had probs with our facilitator.
So the facilitator told the Public Ministry that the $20,000 we had paid for the 1st part of the adoption fees of two babies was a donation to him!
He kept the money and all he did on our case was translate our dossier. He didn't prepare the paperwork for Family court or even PGN. So, we paid $20,000 to get our dossier translated!!! The Public Ministry, saw through his lies and forced him to give us/our new attorney the custody and our dossier back.
Fortunitely, I was fostering in the country with the baby. We had to hire several additional attorneys to deal with this man, a criminal attorney, an adoption attorney, and one other attorney to represent us in the courts.
The additional fees were over $20,000, not including the loss of income from living in the country over a year.
So, yes you could finish on your own, BUT your agency needs to be aware that if they drop you and your adoption contract gets void in some way, then that could be a huge problem, because your contract may not have been between you and your Guatemalan facilitator! Most likely it was between you and your agency.
You may need to contact other families with your agency and make sure your agency doesn't drop you and void your contract.
Posted by: Tiff at December 31, 2007 04:40 PM