Translation. Marie, Guatadopt.com

[b]Procurador General de la Nación refuses to renounce post.[/b]

The Attorney General's Office, Mario Gordillo, called today to President Alvaro Colom, you must have immediately terminated the waiver request that was made. (Click icon pdf and read letter from the president PGN)

Gordillo also called on him to provide all the necessary guarantees for the exercise of its powers under the law.

The prosecutor indicated that the Constitution prevents he be removed from his job without good cause, therefore, for the sake of preserving the rule of law should be maintained unharmed to maintain the State.

The president Colom confirmed today that it had requested the waiver of the attorney to consider that there is a conflict of interest due to his wife was elected judge of the Supreme Electoral Tribunal (TSE). He is counsel for the State, not just the Executive, which will spend the day there is a problem with the TSE, the agent was asked.

The other reason to ask for his resignation is that after an evaluation, it was determined that lack dynamism in the Attorney General's Office, according to the agent.

Colom has already indicated that proposals of people who could fill the position, but until we resolve the resignation of Gordillo nothing can be done.

Ok, I know this sounds selfish, but couldn't this wait until the in-process cases were all through PGN? We have to be getting close to that. Do we need yet another political battle to possibly delay our babies getting home? It had finally seemed like the PGN was moving cases in and out at a reasonable pace. I'm sure Colom has his reasons, just question the timing of this with all of these children's lives hanging in the balance.

I found this on the JCICS website.
Can you tell me what this means?
Due to the concerns regarding the complexity of the DHS regulations governing the implentation of the Hague Convention and the relatively short intial comment period of only 60 days. Joint Council has contined to advocate for a reopening of the comment period. We are pleased to announce that DHS has reopened the comment period of 60 day effective Monday March 24, 2008. Does this means the US will not come Hague complaint on April 1st.

Kevin - please tell us this is not going to impact the adoption part of PGN and the processing of in process cases.

I agree with you Debbie. It seems like this has the possiblity to cause more delays. I have heard that PGN is now charging a fee when a case is about to be out of PGN...has anyone else heard this? If so, do you think this has anything to do with this decision? I just hope we will all be able to bring our children home soon.

Debbie,
Perhaps this will help us, not hurt us?
I doubt that most of the in-process cases are near completion. I, and many others, are still trying to get re-submitted to pgn, and having problems with that.
There are others who began last Fall who are still waiting for PA's and Family Court, too.
anonymous

Few days alter the Attorney General celebrated the triumph of his wife who was appointed by the Congress as one of the magistrates of the Supreme Electoral Tribunal,Mario Gordillo, Attorney General was politely requested to present his resignation, by the Chief of Staff of President Colom. Gordillo refused such request.

In a press conference held yesterday at the PGN, Gordillo expressed that he will act as Attorney General until March 2010, because he was appointed by Oscar Berger in 2006, for a period of four years, and that he will file legal resources to prevent Colom from firing him.

President Colom has said that he needs someone who does not have a conflict of interests, like Godillo has, because he belongs to another political party, has a wife in a high position and he is not handling efficiently the adoption processes. We can attest that it is not only adoption processes that are not being properly handled, but all the processes where the PGN has to act as such. Because of the PGN interference, the abandonment processes take years and that affects negatively the children, because the worst enemy of an abandoned child is time. The PGN lawyers do not go to the hearings, or demand unnecessary documents to prevent the judge from ruling on the merits of the case and when the child is ruled abandoned, the PGN files an appeal, that even if it is not granted, it takes many months of the life of the child who is waiting.

There is need for a change in the way the PGN is being handled. Gordillo must go. It is necessary that someone who has the best interest of the children at heart, is appointed as Attorney General. This is the time when you can tell President Colom, the problems with your adoptions, due to the groundless requests of the PGN. His email is cartapresidente@scspr.gob.gt. Don't wait any longer. Write now and make a difference in the lives of the Guatemalan children.

I sure hope that this doesn't hold up PAP'S IN PGN again, but I hope that PAP's will be wait a little longer, if it means that children will be better protected by someone who will not accept bribes.

Ok, the word is that Colom is may be aware of the unethical behavior of Gordillo and Barrios who is under him.

The word is also that many files have been held up in PGN with the first reviewer. Not, sure why, but they are looking into it.

They said if anyone is getting out quick, it's a previos or a bribe!

If Colom gets Gordillo out than they expect that will also mean Barrios will be on his way out too.

I really do not know much about the two, but I do know that they leave files that represent children's lives on piles on their desk to collect dust for months. When files should/could be out quickly, they don't rush anything unless they get paid as they say it here, "UNDER THE TABLE" !!!

Is anyone else as exhausted by this as I am? I have been waiting for almost 16 months for my daughter to come home. All 4 KO's have been problems with LAWYER stuff, nothing else. Every KO takes 4-8 WEEKS to fix. I hope and pray that this doesnt hold things up. I should be back in from a Feb KO this week. It is sooooo frustrating!!!

I would have to strongly disagree with the comment by airstar98. We were resubmitted to PGN on 2/11 and got out on 3/3. Many others in our agency have gotten out as well, most in 2-3 weeks. Our agency does NOT pay anyone bribes and to suggest that everyone who gets out quick does is just plain stupid. I often read comments on here, but never post, but come on....grow up or maybe think more and/or learn more about things before you post. There are many ethical agencies and individuals that are a part of this process. Are there bad ones, of course, but don't lump everyone together.

"Because of the PGN interference, the abandonment processes take years and that affects negatively the children, because the worst enemy of an abandoned child is time"

I couldn't agree more.

I agree with guatemomof2 we are exhausted, discouraged and disheartened.

If yours is a nortorial adoption, the money for bribes has already been charged to you. Part of your fees are used to pay "extra" to certain people along the way. There's a very large cushion figured into your fees, depending on how much a lawyers wants to make themselves on all their cases each month. Some agencies might not know this, but it definitely happens and is not the exception. Things have changed over the years, as adoption has become more of a "lucrative business". It wasn't always so. My sources are dependable, having witnessed these changes from the ethical side of adoptions and suffering the consequences of much slower cases for decades.

Hey Heidi, I'm not talking about the very fortunate people who got back into PGN on 2/11. They got through fair and square, I would hope, but now PGN is over loaded with files and our attys, said no one is moving, everyone of their cases seem stuck with the first reviewer, so they suspect that those who have gotten out after that great outpouring of quick outs could be because they got a previo or paid a bribe.

When those cases that were resubmitted back in 2/11, the PGN had a huge amount of time off, not approving cases and probably did not have as many as they have now.

Also, I'm just telling you what we have heard from a super reliable source.

Also, Heidi, let me explain how this works. You sign with your agency and they are the best you can find. Your agency has contacts in Guatemala. Your agency cannot watch their every move. Your agency may do it's best to only be connected with very ethical Guatemalan contacts, but we already know that paying a birth mother was a normal part of the process of the adoption. You agency would totally deny this, but the truth is that the Guatemalan contact could have paid the birthmom and you would never know, neither would your agency, THIS IS WHY THE PEOPLE HERE REFER TO THESE ACTS AS "UNDER THE TABLE".

What is not very smart, is thinking that it doesn't happen. I don't really care to say too much more, but these unethical practices will come to the light and if you read the post back in 2007, you will see that little by little what PAP's thought was never happening was happening.

Hey Heidi, there were several cases that got submitted super quickly after getting CA approval and were fortunate like you to get out quickly, most like fair and square and also due to the PGN having some time off with no new files, since they rejected accepting anything for weeks, until the CA got it together.

They cleared their desk in a sense and those who got first submitted, many were out really quick.

My atty's are talking about the cases submitted later in the month of Feb. In a month, there has been no movement. If you weren't out, you would understand. Because several PAP's have called every week to be told, "Still With the First Reviewer", their should have been some movement at least to the second reviewer.

So they are going to try and figure out why none of their cases are moving. This is not only one atty, this is her colleges as well.

They are upset and so are the PAP's they represent. We are glad you got out quick, good for you, but for those who are getting out quick during a complete standstill, the atty get frustrated, because yes, they know that PGN, got a huge pile of cases and too many at one time, but they want to see movement and it's frustrating to them to, to not see movement on their cases and to see movement on other, we'll just say, other questionable atty's cases, then they are not stupid as you say, they are actually very intelligent and then know the truth, that cases can get through PGN quicker if a bribe is given.

Heidi, what's not very smart is thinking that because you have a very good agency, so therefor, nothing unethical was done on your case. 90% of biomoms were paid and to be honest with you, the biomom of your baby was probably given some money, which would be fine if the law allowed that, but the law does not have guidelines to allow for the biomom to receive money and to protect the baby from being a commodity.

What I'm trying to tell you is that it was common among all attys, if needed to pay the biomom something and to pay the finder of the biomom something.

Even though it was not legal, it was done "UNDER THE TABLE" , "A SECRET".

Now, you can have the best agency in the world and if they think they are tied to great reputable Guatemalan contacts, than that is fine, but the truth is that no one would know if a bribe was given, not you, or your agency, that's why it is the common way to refer to it as "UNDER THE TABLE", NO ONE KNOW, NO PAPERWORK TO TRACK IT.

Now, your's was probably fine. AND, heck, who would not want to pay $1,500 more to get out of PGN quickly.

Some would see it as an expedite fee, but when the PGN refused cases and then thousands of cases all got CA approval around the same time and then got submitted to PGN around the same time, attys can see a pattern when some attys, cannot get a case out and other's are getting their cases out super quickly.

Yes airstar98, you continue to be negative. While I'm a fan of freedom of speech, I'm quite tired of all your posts, and I'm sure many others are as well. This site used to be used for good, now all anyone does is complain which is why it's no longer bookmarked on my computer and I'll no longer read the posts. I'm going to focus all my energy on my final preparations for travel and enjoying my time with my son.

The corruption talk combined with evidence of corruption is making me sick. Especially when we all know there are so many women who can get pregnant who are not ready to be parents or raise an additional child and want to find a good home for their children and so many abandoned. The idea that some would prey off others especially children and the ivory towers who would rather a child die before age 5 than be adopted is very disheartening. There must be a special place in hell for those people. It is so sad the adults of this world cannot do the right thing. Colom seems like a good man and has so much on his plate with improving the lives of Guatemalans and not just adoptions. However children dont have all the time in the world for someone to provide a solution. He's kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Meanwhile the children wait and I don't want to think about the situation of some of these children as we have seen in Mayan Families. The head of PGN has an obvious conflict and it seems odd to me he'd refuse to leave when its an obvious conflict. Our children came home before 1 and 3 and while I thank god for them everyday there is bitterness about the process because even at this young age it was hard on them. My son just yesterday finally understood all woman and men were not mommy and poppy or at least not his mommy and poppy. When he realized it he kept hugging both of us saying MINE Mommy and Poppy. It made us want to cry. On that note I wish all the cr*p would just stop and children be given their mommys and poppys so they too can say Mine Mommy and Poppy. Thats what this is all about and its tragic for people to keep stopping that from happening. Let the kids have families for the love of god.

I am one of those stuck on the 1st reviewers desk. I was resubmitted to PGN on 2/28 and as of yesterday heard "still on the 1st reviewers desk".

We adopted 3 years ago from a very "ethical" agecny so when we decided to adopt again we used the same agency. We have been in process for 14 months and during this adoption have now found that our agency is anything but ethical. The director of our agency selectivly had some families pay 100% up front, she has since quit, money is unaccounted for and files are missing. Families are stuck having to hire outside help and come up with more money to complete their adoptions while waiting for justice from the slow US legal system.

As we've seen on this site before with Mary Bonn, Waiting Angels and the list continues to grow. We all like to think we've done our research and know that the agency we have chosen is "ethical", some of us will never really know what is happening behind the scense until we are one of the unfortunate ones to be burnt. For my agency for every 1 family that has been taken, there are many happy clients, this is how these people work.

I know there are many good ethical agencies out there but when money comes into play there are just as many unethical people who are profiting from the very emotion driven adoption world.

Some very interesting comments. I think we are all working on some fragile nerves. So, I thought I would post some good news. We moved to the second reviewer on 3/10. I called PGN and they said 2 to 3 weeks left then we are out. Although cautiously optimistic, when we have contacted pgn in the past they have always been accurate with their estimates. Of course, this all is dangling on the hope we are not KO'd. Just pray!!!

I think it is unfair to say 90% of biomoms have been paid 'under the table' unless you have proof of that. Just because there is no proof that it is not the case, doesn't automatically make everyone guilty of doing so.

Our agency told us when we signed on that they were very ethical and did not believe in bribes. We have also been told our attorney in Guat. will not play these games. I believe them, and if it means our adoption takes a little longer, I guess it is the price we have to pay. We have struggled with wanting our daughter home, but we also know that paying bribes would just perpetuate the problem for everyone else. We trust the folks we are paying to handle our adoption.

Our agency also told us that after the CA situation resolved, that PGN was trying to move files out in a timely manner - 3 weeks or so. Compared to the past practice of 8 weeks plus, this is a huge improvement. They have a lot of files sitting in PGN since they weren't processing files for many weeks. There are a handful of people reviewing them. Let's give them a chance to catch up before we start pointing fingers as to why some folks got out quickly and shy others are still waiting to get out. Perhaps there is something going on that needs to be investigated, but we don't know that for fact and we shouldn't be making all these accusations.

By the way, we are still waiting to get into PGN so I am not saying this as someone who is already out.

Best of luck to all in bringing ALL of our babies home.

Bribes are without a doubt done everyday with many cases.I don't think that should be allowed because each case should get equal chance to be processed.

HOWEVER, I wish I would have had an attorney that would have bribed. We waited 18 months and when we went to Guatemala a couple weeks ago to pick up our child, the first thing our attorney said was that she knows our case took a very long time but the only way to get it through quickly is to pay and she refuses to do it because she doesn't want any of her adoptions questioned in the future.

The bribing does not get done by your agency, your agency has nothing to do with it. It is the attorney.

I must say, my Guatemala fee was next to nothing compared to what most people pay. Our attorney told us that they don't need to charge more because they will not bribe.

while I don't think bribes are fair, I do not fault anyone whose case invovled a bribe. I would have been right there with them if my attorney would have done it.

Well said Airstar! I am still waiting for my kids and we have been in process over a year and they are NOT an abandonment case. Also brought home a baby at 91/2 months old in January, started with her at 3 weeeks old. I know for a fact bribes are given becasue on one of my visit trips a man told me he was in PGN for only 3 weeks and I said how and he told me it would cost me $1500 and I had 2 other people I personally know that started after me and got out before and both told me they paid a "little something extra" and they were with good reputable agencies...SO IT DOES HAPPEN MORE THEN PEOPLE REALIZE and known and unknown to to the PAP's. I am still sitting in PGN since 2/12 and I am seeing many on the forum with that same date OUT for weeks now! Happy for anyone to be getting out...VERY HAPPY, but appreciate that someone else realizes the system is very frayed!

airstar, you are 100% correct! Those of us who are NOT paying bribes are sitting and waiting. In fact, we were told that we were just placed with a different first reviewer because the first one left everything on his desk and never looked at anything. We were submitted on 2/29, and nothing at all :-(
Let us out with no bribes please!

GuateRose

I take exception to the comment that the cases who got out quickly "paid an expedited fee".
I was resubmitted on 2/11 at the exact same time as many from my agency. We have the same attorney and all paid the same agency fees. Most got out of PGN in a few short weeks. I did not. Are we saying that my attorney paid the expedited fee for other cases, but not mine?
Those types of comments are just not helpful to hear, especially when I am so hurt and disappointed and really struggling to stay positive and hopeful.

Airstar98,

You said, "90% of biomoms were paid."

Could you please provide your source for this information?

I take exception to the comment about the "expedited fee".
I was resubmitted on 2/11 along with many others from my agency. We use the same attorney and all paid the same agency fees. Most got out of PGN in a few short weeks. I did not.
Are "we" saying that for some reason, my attorney did not see fit to pay the "expedited fee" for my case, but did for the others?
Those types of comments are really hurtful. Especially when I am having a really hard time saying positive and hopeful.

During a meeting with the Embassy in Guatemala, they told us that, I believe it was 96% of biomoms were being paid, but I cannot remember the exact %, so I say 90+%.

It's a fact, sorry but that's the truth. Also, those who got in early after CA approval got in with PGN with little files on the desk and probably got out fair and square.

2nd, US families are use to getting things expedited, so to pay $1,500 to get out of PGN fast, to many seems a good thing, but then some attys, can not risk their reputations being hurt by giving bribes.

Heidi, I'm very happy for you that your baby's going home. It's probably because you are almost home free that you don't care to be a part of the forum anymore. I post for those who are still waiting and want to know what is going on behind the scenes from the word of the attys here

Yes, although airstar was very blunt I believe what was stated. I feel that all of us come into this process with so much love in our hearts for these kids that we sometimes turn a shoulder to what some of this process entails. I found out that my bio mom was paid. Well, that she was given a "gift." When I found out I was horrified. I couldn't fathom the idea that I could be "buying" into some of the corruption going on in Guatemala. When I discussed this with my "contact", I was told that the attorneys (not all of them, I don't want any backlashes here)will give gifts to the mothers basically for putting their children up for adoption. If the attorney doesn't, then the mother will find someone else who will. It was explained that even some of the more honest mothers will witness another mothers gift and then want the same or better. Not that they are necessarily exchanging their child for $ or what have you, but that since they are giving them up, they might as well receive something too. And yes, I know that is not every case- but it does exist, even in some of your more honest cases. And it makes me sick to my stomach. I feel in my heart that my son's bio mom wants him in a good home and that she really couldn't keep him. I sincerely hope she didn't give him up for some "token of appreciation." When I discussed this with my husband he was upset as well. I was told, by the contact, to think of it like an American adoption, where the adoptive parents will sometimes pay for things for the bio mom before the baby is born. In this respect, it does make the issue feel a little less dreary. But still... it's a horrible feeling to know that what people are smearing all over the news about these types of things, is something that I am in some way involved with. But... here's the kicker- what do you do with that? I can't stop my adoption just because the bio mom possibly received a nice necklace and a good hotel stay while she visited the social worker. Although these unnerving things happen, what are we individual supposed to do. Yes the process needs reform, but nothing will buy a child's time with their forever family.

The truth of the matter is- there is a lot going on behind our backs- whether we like it or not, and whether we choose to believe it or not. But like everything else in life- you have to take the good with the bad. Nobody is perfect, and neither are any adoptions. Whether it be with people or this horrible, ugly process we are put through. But in the end, we will all be rewarded with a smiley face, sticky fingers, and hugs and kisses. So hopefully we don't have to argue anymore about this. It's something we can't control. It's just something they are going to have to change so that hopefully, others don't have to follow this gift giving path.

I would like to REMIND EVERYONE that we PAP's are not the only one's reading the posts on this site.

The VERY LAST THING we need is to upset people at PGN, or any other agency, who might be reading Guatadopt.com. I do not need to wait another 12 months to bring my child home because the comments here stepped on the wrong toes.

THINK before you type please!

You are all just upsetting me with your negative comments. Here I am sitting on eggshells waiting for my PA, and you are starting an argument that no one will win.

Do you need to be reminded that we PAP's are not the only ones reading Guatadopt.com? The LAST THING I need is to wait another 12 months for my child to come home, because someone at a government agency was offended by comments they read from PAP's here.

THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE...THINK TWICE BEFORE YOU CLICK ON "POST".

does anyone know how to get in touch with PGN to find out where we are in the process? My attorney has no clue!

This is sensitive territory here, talking about ethics, especially when you try to do so across cultures. My understanding from people who have lived in several Central American countries is that "bribing" has been a somewhat normal part of certian activities in some Latin American countries for decades, certainly not all.

Are the people who participate in this unethical if it is widely accepted or is the whole system
unethical? If the result is that children are being placed in permanent home sooner is that a completely bad thing? If it causes legal trouble later, though, does it do more harm than good? I don't know the answers, it's very complicated. I'm not sure those of us not living in the culture involved can really know enough to judge......

Reba

Knowing what percentage of our Guatemalan fees goes to support the hogar where our children lived, and knowing how little the attorney charges the hogar to process a case, it's little wonder that processing adoptions has become a very, very lucrative business for attorneys. Multiply their cut by the 20 some cases many attorneys process in a month, and it starts to become very hard to swallow. I hope we would all want to wait as long as it takes to ensure that families in Guatemala AND the US are protected, and that no child is used for "business purposes". None of us wants any questions posed about whether our child came to us legally, no matter how important it feels right now to get them home as soon as possible. Most would be able to honestly say that they didn't know what was truly going on behind the scenes. But when very reliable sources tell us that the inconsistencies (which we all see) are because of bribes, we can't continue to wish it wasn't true. What some might not have known up to this point, they can'be be held responsible for. But knowing what we know now, from many and various reliable sources, we must move forward informed and willing to wait out the changes necessary. Yes, children will suffer longer waits. And yes, we might have a more difficult adjustment with our child. But if they do come to us, they will adjust. They will be better for having a family who teaches them that good and valuable things come after much patience and that integrity and high ethical standards are very important. They will grow into adults who will stand for what's right and never knowingly take advantage of others. And they can be proud of their first country for its courage to make the changes necessary to insure children could grow up with hope for a better future than Guatemala could offer them at the time.

I believe most people here have little idea of what has been going on behind the scenes for many, many years. Unless you knowingly paid a bribe or knowingly worked with someone who did, you are not guilty, but only uninformed. We should all be thankful things might be "cleaned up", even if it means we wait or even if we must be disappointed. It's the only fair thing for these children. In the end, adoption is for children. Families just get the blessing of being part of it all.

CC, I do not speak for Airstar98, but I can tell you that the US Embassy itself is one source of this "in excess of 90% of birthmoms receive compensation for relinquishing" statement! I know we all want to believe that nothing like this (or worse) happened in our adoptions, but the plain fact is that most of us simply *do not know* who was paid what out of the $20-24K we sent to Guatemala. JMHO Lisa

Who cares if their is $ under the table. The mothers in quatemala are giving up their flesh and blood to fill the empty hearts of many many people. This is a country in poverty which I am sure non of you have ever experienced before. I think the focus of the conversation when completely out of control. Let us get back to the real topic of when they are going to take Guatemala off hold and give 1000's of innocent children a chance. Obviously money is not an issue for the Americans so get over it.

Its awfully provocative to proclaim that people who got out of PGN during a certain time frame must have paid bribes to do so. Its a particularly unfair accusation because it is impossible for PAPs to prove or disprove. If you would like to cause a rift amongst those that are out of PGN and those that are still in, this is a good way to do it.
Everyone already knows there is no rhyme or reason behind why some people get out faster than others. Its terribly unfair, and it HAS to be hard on those who wait to see others breeze through. This accusation hits some very raw nerves and is hurtful. Remember that PAPs can be victims of the process too, and a certain amount of compassion is warranted. I have complete faith that everyone on this board does everything in their power to ensure their adoption is conducted legally and ethically. Everyone wants things to be 'above the table', so in that regard you are preaching to the choir. So please lets try to remember that we share the same desire for ehtical and transparent adoptions and there's no need to turn argumentative.

"Who cares" if birth mothers are paid under the table? Well, I care. I'd hope that a lot of people care. When you start paying birth mothers, you've crossed a line (that you may have already crossed through other actions) into human trafficking and the selling of babies. Now, if you're just talking about paying for health care during the pregnancy, that's a different issue. But if women begin to believe they can make some extra money by having a baby and giving it up for adoption, then you start to see even more children in the system who cannot find families and the problem of abandoned children gets even worse. I'm not saying that all Guatemalan birth mothers do this but I am saying that in situations of extreme poverty, this can and does happen. So, yes, I care if birth mothers are paid under the table. And to suggest, pg, that there aren't enough children out there for adoptive families and that the birth mothers are giving up their flesh and blood in order to fill this void for adoptive families is something I cannot comprehend. Frankly, that is blind to all the children across the world in orphanages and on that street. And it even verges on a very colonial attitude that I cannot even begin to address.

On the issue of changes in PGN, no time is a good time. It will always be slowing people down. But if a change needs to be made, then it needs to be made. I'm sorry if that means that people have to wait longer but at the same time, isn't that worth it to make sure the process is better for everyone in long run? Have people following international adoption not yet realized that it takes time and that these things happen?

I just have a question of a different nature. Where are those who are in PGN getting their information as to where their case is? Some have very specific information. I am with an agency that is reputable but does not give us any indication of where our case is in PGN. They believe we should just wait until they tell us we are out. I would love to know where things stand for my case.

Without getting into a right vs wrong, ethical vs. not ethical debate, it surprises me that people are so indignant at the mention of bribery. Folks, in some places, many places, it is a very common thing. My latin American family members have explained to me many times that this is how things happen. Now PLEASE don't confuse what I am saying here with the topic of kidnapped children or such. Two ENTIRELY different topics.

In light of the recommendation of ADA (see below) is anyone emailing President Colom? Is this something that anyone has thought about? We are at our wits end waiting for a ruling from "the other part of PGN" about a problem with the birth mother's birth certificate. What are anyone else's thoughts?

Few days alter the Attorney General celebrated the triumph of his wife who was appointed by the Congress as one of the magistrates of the Supreme Electoral Tribunal,
Mario Gordillo, Attorney General was politely requested to present his resignation, by the Chief of Staff of President Colom. Gordillo refused sch request.

In a press conference held yesterday at the PGN, Gordillo expressed that he will act as Attorney General until March 2010, because he was appointed by Oscar Berger in 2006, for a period of four years, and that he will file legal resources to prevent Colom from firing him.

President Colom has said that he needs someone who does not have a conflict of interests, like Godillo has, because he belongs to another political party, has a wife in a high position and he is not handling efficiently the adoption processes. We can attest that it is not only adoption processes that are not being properly handled, but all the processes where the PGN has to act as such. Because of the PGN interference, the abandonment processes take years and that affects negatively the children, because the worst enemy of an abandoned child is time. The PGN lawyers do not go to the hearings, or demand unnecessary documents to prevent the judge from ruling on the merits of the case and when the child is ruled abandoned, the PGN files an appeal, that even if it is not granted, it takes many months of the life of the child who is waiting.

There is need for a change in the way the PGN is being handled. Gordillo must go. It is necessary that someone who has the best interest of the children at heart, is appointed as Attorney General. This is the time when you can tell President Colom, the problems with your adoptions, due to the groundless requests of the PGN. His email is cartapresidente@scspr.gob.gt. Don't wait any longer. Write now and make a difference in the lives of the Guatemalan children.

The suggestion of writing President Colom, the head of state of another country, is out of bounds. It should never have been suggested. Its disrespectful and could be a major political blunder that could damage relations between countries as well as jeopardize adoptions. Allowing us to adopt from Guatemala is a GIFT not a RIGHT. Working with heads of state is what ambassadors are for. Do you honestly think the President who has an entire country on his plate wants to hear from you? If you do you really need to step away for awhile before you do anything thats interpreted as speaking for the families.

Regarding what stage of the process your case is in PGN and how to find out, please log onto our forum, where the how to's are posted. For the person who stated that their attorney had no idea where the case is at, don't buy that excuse from them as he/she can find out by either calling or going in person to PGN and asking, as he/she has your POA to do so, it is his/her case as well. They know that already. JMHO>
Marie, Guatadopt.com

Currently in PGN for the 4th time, accepted referral on January 19th 2007 of DD Born 12/17/06. It has been 1 challenge after another. So after 15 months it was suggested that it might be necessary to "give a gift" to the case reviewer to move my case along????

To the person who wanted to write to the president. I SAY GO AHEAD... I do not think it is out of bounds at all, after all the elected officials are "here for the people" to cover ALL issues of a Country. He may or may not read them but it's worth a shout. Heck, I wrote our president when I was caught in the mess and I knew it was a long shot but I actually got a letter back telling me who to contact. BY THE WAY... My senaator was a HUGE help.
I sy di what you feel you should do.
ALSO:
HERE IS THE CONTACT INFO FOR PGN:
01150222483200 when you here the voice hit extention(2037) Ask for lara, if there is no English speaking person they will just hang up on you. It's lovely :)

For those who may not know, the PGN is much more than just the governmental agency that processes adoptions. Its equivalent in the United States is the Department of Justice. Consequently, the head of PGN is the equivalent of the U. S. Attorney General. Where in the United States the cabinet members all serve at the pleasure of the President, the Guatemalan constitution provides that the head of the PGN can only be removed for justifiable cause. President Colóm argues that since Gordillo's wife is now a judge of the Tribunal Supremo Electoral there is an obvious conflict of interest. Since Gordillo is also a member of another political party, President Colóm naturally wants to replace him with his own appointee. Gordillo, on the other hand, undoubtedly knows a good thing when he sees it, and refuses to step down.

As for all the people outraged at the idea of bribery, it is a fact of everyday life in Guatemala (and for many other parts of the world as well.) Guatemalans jokingly call a bribe a "mordita" - Spanish for "a little bite." Police officers, customs/border agents, and other public employees commonly (and openly) solicit bribes before performing their jobs - or to speed up the process. (I personally know a Guatemalan who paid the police a bribe to avoid the written and behind-the-wheel tests normally required to obtain a driver's license. Presto, chango! Here's your license. Drive safely!)

Point is, it does no good to proclaim the bribery "isn't fair" and shouldn't be allowed. It is ingrained in the culture, and may well never be eradicated.

lisa2,

Reading your message left me wondering if it is either posted on behalf of the Attorney General or inspired by someone who does not have a child trapped in the clutches of the PGN. Since your arguments against writing to President Colom are based on statements that are not true, it is necessary to set the record straight. Ambassadors, for your information, deal with matters of International Public Law, that is to say, with problems or agreements between COUNTRIES. The matters of International PRIVATE Law must be dealt by the private persons themselves

When somebody enters into an international adoption and the authorities of the sending country are not doing their job, the boss, in this case the President, has to know about that. To write to the president a letter about the performance of the State employees, is not only not disrespectful, but the right thing to do. The US embassy says in its website that they cannot intercede for any particular adoption case, and that means that it is the person himself who has to do it. There is no difference between doing it through a lawyer who has a power of attorney or doing it personally. The right to do it is a legitimate one.

To adopt a child from another country may be a gift, but to be treated fairly and according to the laws of the country is a RIGHT that every person has, regardless of his /her place of residence or citizenship. Writing to the President of Guatemala to let him know the abuses of power of the PGN will only help him to take a fair decision regarding the removal of someone who does not care for the children who are waiting, much less for the families who suffer while they wait to bring him home, and who has little respect for the laws of Guatemala.

Do not be afraid. The children who are being adopted need that those who have chosen them as their own speak up for them, and who could be better to hear your complaints than the President of Guatemala?

I am not speaking in the name of all Guatemalans, but as a Guatemalan, I can say that I find it quite offensive when people say that bribing is normal and "culturally" acceptable. Yes, this is common practice, but yes, many Guatemalans are working to change it. It was worse before and it has changed thanks to Guatemalans and nobody else. No, it isn't normal and no, many of us vote and choose officials that will eradicate corruption. If PAPs accept to go along corruption, with the excuse that it is a "cultural practice," you are doing a big disfavor to the country of origin of your children. You are actually making it harder for the Guatemalans that fight hard to eradicate it. You are making it harder to PAPs that do not accept corruption under any circumstance.

Mariale,

You know I do not condone corruption of any form.

The challenge for PAPs, who all want legal processes, is to how do we act in our one interaction with systemnatic corruption. Unlike folks living in Guatemala, we don't have the chance day in and day out to make a difference.

I will openly state that anyone who knowingly paid a bribe to "speed up" a case should be ashamed of themselves. They are sacrificing others out of their own selfishness. But what about the folks who had to pay or face indeterminate delays?

I am happy to see Pres Colom trying to oust Gordillo because PGN has had serious corruption issues during his tenure. There have been times when attorneys who refused to pay bribes were penalized.

I hope the difference between trying to get preferential treatment and trying to get the darn cases done is clear. And regardless, bribery is wrong whether it is the norm or not.

Pres Carter, who IMHO was the only HONEST president we have had in the last 40+ years actually legalized certain "facilitating payments" for businesses. This was because as international trade increased, without paying off people, business was impossible. It wasn't legal to pay someone off to get through an illegal shipment or get something out with customs duties. But it diod allow people to do things if necessary to conduct normal business.

I love Guatemala and I love the improvements being made for its people. If people don't take stands against the ills of society, they will never change and so I totally see Mariale's point. If we Americans don't start figuring out how to be disciplined fiscally, our social secuity system will never be saved. If we as humans don't learn how to repsect Mother Earth, our planet will die and we will along with it. We all need to live our everyday lives with the big picture in mind. So out of my love for Guatemala I applaud all those trying to chnage things and create a more civil society!

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Susana,

My children are home. I am not a personal penpal of the attorney general. Look back at some of the comments here and in previous posts. There are occasionally comments made that if I were still in family court or PGN I would have had a stroke if those comments were being made to the head of a country. Eloquent diplomatic people should be funneling the information through... people like the moderators of Guatadopt or Tom Defilipo. Or legal staff AP's are paying to represent them and work within the legal system. Whats next? We go to a hospital and the surgeon hands us the scalpel to operate on ourselves? People want to write then obviously none can stop them from doing so. I surely hope they proofread and reflect on what they are sending before it goes out. Especially since this is such an emotional process.

This is for Marie who posted on March 28th regarding the PGN and how to find out where your case stands. Marie - what forum do I go to that gives the how to's? Is it a website I have to go to and if so what is the address? I have been in PGN since Feb. 14th and still have no idea what is going on or how much longer it will take to get through PGN and would really love to find out where I stand as my agency has said absolutely nothing to me in 6 weeks. I would truly appreciate anyone's help who could put me in the right direction to contact the PGN myself if possible. Thanks.

Janelle

Janele,

Someone earlier posted this number: 011-502-2248-3200 ext. 2037

From someone else, I had 011-502-2414-8787 ext. 2037

You hit the extension number when you hear the voice system kick in. There is someone named Laura/Lara that speaks English.

I've never called so I can't say which is right or if both are.

For our forums, look at the links on the left hand side of our homepage. Click on the bold "FORUMS" (now don't you feel silly).

Paz,

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Janele,

Don't feel too silly though, or else I am right there with ya! Awhile back, I kept asking questions too, and kept being encouraged to go the forums section too! But like you, I did not know how to do this either until someone showed me.

Once you hit "forums" on the top left of the home page, you will be taken to another page (I think you will be asked to log in). In the center, there will be three topics, "General" "Pgners" and "problem cases" or something like that. Click on the one you want and there will be tons of pages of topics to click on, choose which one you want and click on it, and you will be able to read the topic and all of the comments made about that topic. There is also a search window, where you can type a topic and see what comes up. I found that if I search using several different terms for the same topic (do several searches) I get more info.

Hope this helps!

Lizzie (who is also silly--sorry Kevin!)

lisa 2,

Do not underestimate the convincing power of a frustrated adoptive parent, to state his/her plight due to the inefficiency of the PGN. I get letters from different parents stating their complaints about the PGN all the time, and cannot say that any of them is out of order. All of them explain in very compelling and clear way their situation.

I fail to understand why do you try to discourage the adoptive parents from writing to President Colom. You oppose to it from the comfort of you home in the US, while having your adopted children with you. If your children were prevented to go home with you, because a corrupt officer were holding hostages their files, your perspective would be different. This is a very favorable time, because President Colom is looking for reasons to fire Gordillo, so this is the best moment to let him know what Gordillo is doing.

Your analogy about the patients doing the surgery themselves, does not apply to the present situation, as we are talking about filing complaints, not about the clients doing the professional work themselves. A complaint about the poor performance of an officer can and should be directed to the person who has the power to apply the necessary remedy and nobody is better prepared to write that claim, than the adoptive parents who are deeply affected by what the PGN is doing to their cases.

Neither the Guatadopt moderators nor Tom DiFilippo have the personal interest and the first hand knowledge that the parents of those children deprived of the right of living with their families have. The pain and the frustration they are enduring will give them the eloquence needed to state their grievances. Your opposition is not helping.

Susana Luarca

I think it is fine for PAPs to send the e-mail if they have had personal problems with PGN. But on the same note, they often don't know the exact stories.

It seems to me that agencies, attorneys, and folks JCICS should be contacting them as they have more direct experience. I also think it could serve as a good olive branch for these groups.

For what it is worth, I have passed on word of what we know of bribery and corruption that occured during Gordillos watch. I've also passed on that I know US authorities were made aware of it.

I think it is wrong to say that we, Guatadopt, don't understand the wait. We've been through it. And to think we don't go through it today is wrong. As long as their are PAPs having problems, it impacts my personal life. It means personal time of mine spent trying to help them, answering e-mails, etc. My life would be much easier if all the cases were completed!

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Susana- your comment:
"Neither the Guatadopt moderators nor Tom DiFilippo have the personal interest and the first hand knowledge that the parents of those children deprived of the right of living with their families have. The pain and the frustration they are enduring will give them the eloquence needed to state their grievances. Your opposition is not helping.", this statement is totally wrong.

I have first hand knowledge of the wait, as most of our readers and PAPs know our own stories very well. We have lived through it ourselves. We have had 5 referrals, 3 lost referrals and two beautiful children home. The ride was a roller coaster of ups and downs and that makes me and others at Guatadopt empathize with our readers. Many of which I have been awoken and have spent many a sleepless nights thinking and praying for them. We have cried with their losses, gotten angry at their injustices and advised them when their attorneys have failed miserably to answer them, we have also rejoiced upon the news of their arrival home with their child. To think we do not go through this on a daily basis is very wrong. I spent countless unselfish hours answering and getting information to parents along with providing cultural information to families about Guate and Latino customs. As long as the
parents have problem cases this affects my life on a daily basis.
Don't believe me? Ask them!
Marie, Guatadopt.com

I disagree with Susana, as she is not the president of a country. I also agree with Kevin that what goes on behind the scenes is more often known by agencies and attorneys. Often PAPs get mixed or even misinformation. What sometimes might be portrayed as a problem with PGN might be originating from an attorney. When I read of some of the problems described by PAPs about their own cases, it's not always clear if attorneys are portraying the situation correctly or if they in turn are seeking their own gain. There is always hope that an agency or individuals will slip their own cash under the table to ocmplete an adoption. We know this happens, as people here have been asked to pay more in fees at times, seemingly to solve some problem the attorney has encountered.

I think it very presumptuous and also frightening that PAPs would start bombarding the president of a country with details of their own cases, not necessarily accurate from this end. As unfortunate as it has to be, there is always a concern about what Americans look like when they "barge" into another country demanding rights.

Just a few quick comments...

To Mariale, please accept my apology if I offended you and/or other Guatemalans with my earlier post about bribery. My wife is Guatemalan and we have a large, extended family and many, many friends living in the country. I've been to Guatemala 20+ times, and were I to insult my wife's family there, I'd not be welcomed back. :)

I did not mean to imply that bribery is culturally acceptable, only that it is an unfortunate and all too common fact of life. It should come as no surprise to anyone if it happens in the adoption community from time to time.

What offended ME was the recent post that began "Who cares if their (sic) is $ under the table." Well, my family cares. The fact that Guatemala is an impoverished country is NEVER justification for making bribes and/or under the table payments. We Americans are NOT entitled, simply by benefit of our relative wealth, to view Guatemala or any other country as a source for "buying" children. To do so would be to engage in the despicable practice of human trafficking.

Secondly, I agree with Kevin that it's good to see President Colóm trying to oust Mr. Gordillo from PGN. As very interested parties here in the United States, our family was rooting for Mr. Colóm to win the election. From my (admittedly norteamericano) opinion, his record and rhetoric promises a much better future for Guatemala than that proposed by his opponent, who advocated an "iron fist". Guatemala's been down that path in the past, and it was disastrous. We are thankful that Mr. Colóm won, but cognizant of the fact that he has his work cut out for him. We wish him much success and are hopeful that he and our future president (come on Obama!) develop a warm and mutually beneficial relationship.

Lastly, I feel that it is horribly unfair that Ms. Luarca posted a comment that strongly implied that the GuatAdopt moderators don't "have the personal interest and the first hand knowledge that the parents of those children deprived of the right of living with their families have." Of course they do, just as my wife and I do, from personal experience. We brought our child home from Guatemala 18 months ago, and we continue to visit GuatAdopt (and post occasional comments) because of our interest in supporting other families in their adoption journey. I hope that Ms. Luarca revises her comments, because I believe that they are unfair to Kevin, Kelly, Marie, et. al. at GuatAdopt.

We have been in PGN since 9/28/07. Has anyone been in that long? We called the attorney in Guatemala - who represents us on our POA - and she refused to talk to us. Said we would have to work through our atty in US. US atty has been telling us she has no way to find out where we are. We were first told our son would come home last August, then December, then Jan or Feb and then April. As it stands, if we heard today, he wouldn't get here until May. Is everyone having this problem. What is the average age the children are when they come home. Our son turns 1 year old next week. We got his referral when he was 3 wks old. We are in PGN 26 wks now!! From what I have read this is longer than most and I am starting to worry if he is coming home. Anyone else with such a long wait time?

Hi Ktest-
If you fill out a case support form located at the top under guatadopt, click on contact us and click case support form, we will be happy to give you some insight or you can also log onto the forum to see timelines and ask questions there.
Marie, Guatadopt.com

Susana-
I have to agree with Marie's post. If anyone has "first hand knowledge" of this process--it is the staff of Guatadopt who give their time to PAPs. They are the ones who know about most of the difficult cases and the pain that these families go through. They have all "walked the walk" and are extremely empathetic to what we are going through. They know the pain and frustration that we are feeling and they have felt it themselves. To the Guatadopt team-- a simple "thank you" doesn't seem like enough...

Ktest-
You are not alone. We have been in PGN since 9/26/08, kicked out 3 times, and still waiting. Our son turns one next week as well.

Does anyone know if there is a way we can find out the status of our pre-approval? Once approved is the pre-approval case# the same as the approval case# ?

Thanks -

Does anyone know if we can check the status of a pre-approval?
When a case has gone into PGN status, do we get issued another Case# or does it stay the same as the per-approval Case# ?

Thanks,

I am surprised by the reaction of some posters, and more so by the hostility of some of them. I did not imply anything different than what I wrote. That the Guatadopt moderators help people with difficult adoptions was not the issue. I was neither discussing that nor denying their good work. I mentioned that it must be the adoptive parents who must write to President Colom, to let him know about the problems they have been facing at the PGN.

“First hand knowledge” and “personal interest” are something that only those who have direct involvement in the process have. To learn of the problem through one of the people involved in the adoption, does not qualify as “first hand knowledge” and to be concerned about a case and working to solve its problems, does not amount as “personal interest”. If I urge you to state your case to President Colom, is because I am perceiving this struggle between him and Gordillo, as a window of opportunity to make the President of Guatemala, aware of the terrible ordeal that it is, in some cases, for the adoptive parents to adopt a child of our country. One of the arguments against Guatemalan adoptions is that they are “too easy”. Unless you tell President Colom what you have been going through, and that is to say, your personal experience, the emotional rollercoaster, the toll that it is taking in your family, in your daily life, President Colom will keep believing that the “too easy” adoptions do not need any help from him, and that the PGN is working just fine.

Today, Prensa Libre reported that Godrdillo had to work around the clock for 72 hours on reports to the President, and that he will have to keep giving reports on many pending cases. Make him accountable for your case. Let President Colom know that the PGN has been holding hostage the file of your child, preventing him from having a loving family. Of course, anyone can do it too, even if they are not the adoptive parents, but it would not be as compelling as if the story were told by the adoptive parents.

Kevin and Marie, this is not the moment to fight among ourselves. We are in the same side, so do not try to second guess my words, as they are always written to solve problems, to find solutions to this whirlwind that is taking over adoptions and threatening the lives of thousands of children in Guatemala. It never was about your relentless work to help people with troublesome adoptions. We all thank your for that.

Susana Luarca

I still disagree with PAPs bombarding the president of Guatemala with details of their own case, because I don't believe we always have the correct story. What is sometimes told to PAPs by attorneys and others claiming to be in this strictly for the sake of the children is not always what it seems. There is vested interest among many involved in each case to delay it themselves, to suggest it is someone else who is delaying it, to lay the blame on another step in the process. So from this side of things, to try to sort out the truth and present it as fact to the president of Guatemala I feel is quite risky. I know from reading the forums for some time that people are not always being given accurate information. Much of it is conflicting. PAPs are not always told the truth from their agency or Guatemalan attorneys as to how long the process is (factoring cultural differences in work ethic even without the extra handouts), so PAPs often misunderstand how long an ethical adoption takes in Guatemala. I've read of impatience over what has been typical for decades. I'm not blaming PAPs, because I believe they're not always given accurate information. Therefore, to turn PAPs "lose" to start a letter campaign to the president of Guatemala may seem like a good idea to some in Guatemala who may have their own interest in many cases getting through the system. But as an American having adopted from Guatemala, I am concerned that the information presented in such a letter might not be the truth, through no fault of any PAP. There are plenty of wolves in sheep's clothing who present PAPs with information that only benefits themselves. As someone who has been involved in Guatemalan adoptions four times in the last ten years, I still say it is difficult to know the truth of what happens there. Even though we all claim these children as our own as soon as we receive a referral, we have no "right" to them until they are officially signed off in PGN. Until then, I fear we can appear as wealthy, pushy Americans, demanding that the president of another country hear us out individually, and especially so if we truly aren't in the loop to know with 100% acurracy what is actually going on in our own case. These are Guatemala's children. Granted, there are many in Guatemala who are using their country's children for their own financial gain. But as hard as it is to wait to become their families, we need to tread lightly in a foreign country, a different culture, and in a process that truly needs changes that will make it above all suspicion from all angles. I could be very wrong about all of this. But I am very concerned about how things are handled from the PAPs side of things. This is NOT just about our child coming home. This is about the future of Guatemala adoptions and even more so the future of Guatemalan families. As important as it is to us, it is even more so to the people of Guatemala.

Very well said, Ann. I couldn't agree more.

I hope that *any* American who considers contacting the President of Guatemala thinks about the possible ramifications of the average Joe-citizen demanding the attention of a foreign leader. We as American have a bad reputation of feeling like we are more entitled than anyone else. If we act selfishly by thrusting our own problems at President Colom without the full story and without thinking about how it effects others, we very much deserve and reinforce that nasty reputation.

Susana,

Sorry of we misunderstood you but your last line did come across bad to me. As I said, I've done what I can to make sure that Pres. Colom knows about Gordillo but still maintain that agencies and attorneys can best say what happened when and by whom, especially the bribery/exttortion that occured under his watch.

To PAPs. Pres. Colom wants Gordillo out. He's not going to get upset at you so long as you remain respectful and objective. We Americans have NO say in Guatemala's affairs. Hopefully Colom especially ignores our White House. But we are all involved with Guatemala on this issue and sharing your expeirence is not an expression of manifest destiny.

To all, while I don't always agree with Susana we are on the same page in seeing the positives of adoption even if we may disagree on the extent of the negatives and what should be done about them. And in her defense, because of her vigilance Susana has been signaled out by Gordillo's PGN and no matter what you think of Susana, this is harming innocent children and families. That is wrong and kudos to Colom for trying to lose him!

Kevin
Guatadopt

I thank Susana for everything she has done for the children of Guatemala and for uniting families.

I did not mean to imply the moderators of Guatadopt should speak to Colom for us.. just tried to use examples of the types of speakers you would want to represent a group instead of having a mass of people bombard someone and maybe someone say something that does more harm than good.

I stand by bad gut feeling about thousands of APs riding the emotional rollercoaster of a lifetime writing the president of another country. If Colom wants Gordillo out Colom can take care of it. Do we think Colom can't do his job? The fact Colom has asked him to leave shows Colom doesn't want him there so why does he need us to say the same? He's not the embassy. They aren't going to put more presidents in if he can't keep up with the emails and address the complaints of US citizens. Oh wait.. I'm not sure the embassy did that for us either. Wonder what our chances are with a president.

I'll be blunt. The process getting our children home was one of the most emotionally traumatic experiences of my life. Worth it in every way but it shouldn't have to be this way. And there were definately moments you wouldn't want me writing a president. You keep people in this state and don't give them information on their cases and they're getting no sleep thinking of their children, whether they will ever get them home, and god FORBID what will happen to their child if they can't take them home, what is being done is WRONG but I don't think many in the middle of it are in shape to write a president. I also am sick of everything falling onto APs. The world expects us not only to solve child trafficking, agency fraud, birth mother payment corruption, kidnapping, etc but now we have to help solve Guatemala's judicial or political problems too? There are advocate groups who can speak for us, agencies, and attorneys. The second two we pay for their services so that should not be an issue.

My apologies Susana. I do not mean to be angry with you. Maybe I worry for nothing and the letters are fine. I just implore people to be very respectful if they write a higher power.

"And in her defense, because of her vigilance Susana has been signaled out by Gordillo's PGN and no matter what you think of Susana, this is harming innocent children and families"
I am one of those families Susana families who PGN has signlaed out,
Us and other families have been in process for over year and half.