What I think is so unfortunate in this whole debate is that the corruption/criminal behavior is deemed more important than the inaction/misfeasance of governments.

There are criminals and corruption in any aspect of life that we can think of. That's why we have laws and law enforcement. Jail them/fine them/ban them. Absolutely.

Yet governments and all the NGOs are supposed to be there to serve people and actually make a difference in people's lives. If that's the case (and I happen to believe this), then how on earth did governments and NGOs create such damaging adoption/child welfare systems? They're the ones we should really be outraged at -- because they're supposed to do better (no one expects criminals to do good...)

Just today, Prensa Libre published an article about a UNICEF - yes, UNICEF - report that documents that, out of 1200 children born on a given day in Guatemala, 49 percent of them will grow up chronically malnourished and another 6 percent will die by the age of 5. And yet UNICEF and its assorted fellow travelers invest millions in fighting adoptions in the name of preserving a child's right to birthculture -- even though a malnourished child isn't going to be able to absorb much culture at all. Doesn't anyone out there think this is absolutely, positively obscene and a total perversion of children's true rights -- to love, security, stability and family.

The whole regime of treaties governing int'l children's welfare needs to be torn up/scrapped/burned and some sensible people (like the Guatadopt team...) need to put something new in place that actually will work for children, instead of for the overpaid international bureaucrats at UNICEF.

Well said Lee.

TLG

Our Fault?

When we initiated our adoptions in 1999, one of the questions we asked at our first meeting with the agency director was this: "Are we perpetuating adoptions by doing this? Are we creating a market for children?"

Of course not, the agency director replied. These children need homes regardless.

It will be interesting to see what truth emerges as the new law plays out. Will Guatemala become the new Russia by allowing abortion and by making abortion the primary means of birth control?

When we adopted in 1999, the number of babies coming into the U.S. was no where near what it is today. Over the years, I have become appalled at how the numbers increased and have taken myself back to that initial question many times. Did we perpetuate this situation by our "market" demands?

Now Guatemala is used to sending those huge numbers of babies up North, so what will really happen to the unwanted babies being born now? Or will they be born? Will the word get out that adoption is at an end and will women stop having babies to "sell?"

What happened in El Salvador when adoptions stopped? I wish I had done the research to be able to answer that here, but I didn't. Maybe someone already knows. It is a valid comparison and we can learn from that.

Maybe now our responsibility, our choice of action can be to work to influence healthy institutions for the babies that would potentially enter the (non)process now.

We have many, helpful, organizations in Guatemala, helping in all sorts of ways from medical care to in the field microlending and business support. Maybe an organization could develop to help set up the institutions and work in them.

Who knows? We still have influence. Maybe we can still make lemonade with this pile of lemons.

I just read an article from the International Herald Tribune that documents what kind of life a young girl has when she joins a Guatemalan gang. It's pretty horrific, to say the least. They leave abusive homes to find more abuse from those who purport to protect them and are forced to rob and kill randomly.

Undoubtedly the closing down of the adoption process will only perptuate the continued harsh realities of many of these young men and women.

Guatemala may well become the next Romania. However, it DOES NOT HAVE to become the next Romania. People need to pull together and do the right thing--including reforming the system. Whether you like Hague or not--and I have my concerns--something had to change. I mean, how many undercover stories does it take to convince everyone that there was a problem? We had a "facilitator" giving advice on how to carry out homestudy fraud and help someone with a sexual offense record on national TV (everyone remember Dateline?). Then, we had Simone B. and Joe B. (Waiting Angels) on undercover camera explaining how birth mothers are paid (probably still on YouTube). Children "lost or stolen" being listed right here on Guatadopt. We all remember Mary Bonn and her ridiculous behavior. The list goes on. So, yes Guatemala could become the next Romania, but I am more optimistic than that. You can doom and gloom or roll up your sleeves to develop an ethical system that we can all feel good about. If you are not willing to help reform the system then get out of the way because there will always be children in Guate that really need homes!

Well said Lee.

This is beyond upseting to me. How, how, how do things get to be like this??

Karenms1,

I really haven't seen anyone write on this site who does not want reform. The problem seems to be that "reform" really isn't happening so much as a complete shutting down of the adoption process and we all feel powerless to do something about it. Reform should not mean dragging out the adoption process for 2+ years if adoption is possible at all under the new rules. How do you suggest we help reform the system so that birthmothers who do want to make adoption plans can do so without putting their children in un-supported orphanages for years on end? I would really like to hear what you think "reform" should be like in concrete terms.

Karenms1,
I am also interested in hearing what you think we can do to get "reform" going instead of "shutdown". Talk is cheap. If you want us to help, and if you are so knowlegeable about all of this as you claim to be, then present concrete ideas of what us little PAP's and AP's can do (in the scheme of things) to influence the Guatemalan govt. and groups like UNICEF. How can we influence them to begin the "reform" asap, instead of just talking about it, when in reality much to nothing seems to be happening?

anonymous

If people who read this site are interested in helping the children, women and families of Guatemala they can make donations to Holt International, in Eugene, Oregon to help support the theraputic daycare program at APIF.

This former orphanage, Asociacion Para la Integracion Familia, whose primary goal was to aid in family crisis and reunite children with their birth families, and then after those attempts were made, find families through international adoption, is changing its focus, due to the new adoption laws.

Their focus and dedication remains on the children, women and families of Guatemala. They will offer crisis intervention, low cost day care, family counseling, etc.

Please contact Holt and pledge your assistance to their continued work with the children of Guatemala.

Let me say that after going through the full adoption process for almost 2 years that I have come up with the following conclusions; we can believe it or not but t is true that the governmental structure of international adoption regardless of the country has little if any care for the welfare of the children. I’m sorry that this is true, but it is the reality.

That is not to say that certain governmental people within the system do care for these children and try their hardest to make sure the best interest of the child comes first; but they can not, as we as PAPS can not, fight or change the global heartless system of world democracy in its many facets.

I know it is a crime that many of these children from Guatemala may end up on the street, but if you look around the world at China, Romania, India and 100’s of other countries there are millions of children today who are not being cared for, and this is a shame to all of the human race that in some places of the world such as America have people in congress spend millions of dollars on bridges to now where, when many children don’t even have rice to eat.

The reason that Guatemala has closed for now is that Unicef and the world governing bodies simply did not have enough control in the past system, it had very little to do with corruption as corruption is probably greater in Unicef’s own hierarchy than was in the less than probably 2-3% of fraudulent Guatemalan adoptions.

I could go on, but I think you get the point that it is bureaucracy and government control that is hurting the worlds most needy more than anything else, but I want to end by saying that what ahs impressed my wife and I in this process is the tireless network of adoptive families that is one of the strongest bonds I have seen in my life.

While we were stepped on, ignored and rejected by the system of world democracy in the adoption process, we had loving caring people ( social workers, agency employees, and simple adoptive mom and dads who wanted to help) who went out of their way in any way they could to help make this road a little easier. I have so much admiration for Kevin and Kelly and their staff that they have dedicated their lives to helping others get through this nightmare of this process at times, and who knows how many children are in their parents loving arms only because of them.

Please each of us give back a little that was given to us and lets win this battle one child as a time. We Thank you all and thank our Heavenly Father for helping our path, we bring our daughter home April 30th.
Don

Well spoken, Kevin. All of us who have adopted Guatemalan children can only hope that things change for the best in their native country.

However, Guatemala does appear to be the next Romania. There is no real public money to support an adoption program, and not much chance of reviving the deservedly criticized private programs. The children are the ones who will pay the price of the outdated socialist, xenophobic ideals of the UN and the unbridled greed of adoption lawyers.

The solution, I'm afraid requires intelligent leadership from the UN -- something we are likely to have to wait a long time for. The UN has won the fight to effectively curtail international adoption. And the UN is institution that will have to lead the way in letting this method of providing for the best interests of children become something other than a "last resort" after two years of unnecessary delays and red tape.

Basta ya!!!

What's with all this attack at poster karenms1?

I don't know how many times I have followed discussions here, only to have them lead to debates between her and other posters. What about the original post by Kevin? Don't let it get lost just because you like to attack karenms1.

This, folks, is not healthy debate. It is hitting vendetta proportions and I, for one, just don't come back when I see someone launching frivilously at another poster. If you don't agree with her, then just drop it and say what you have to say without responding to her. If you don't like her, don't give her the negative attention!!!!

Let's focus on the REAL discussions we COULD be having!!!!

Like, how do we, as Americans, influence the Guatemalan government and keep it from becoming a Romania? Where is all of your brilliant brainstorming????

I,for one, believe it is in grassroots efforts by orginazations like Holt, as mentioned, and other like orginazations. Do you know of someone who is working on the ground to help bring Guatemalan society into the 21st century? Tell us about it!

How can we REALLY get involved?

My head is spinning from all the stories regarding what is and what will happen in Guatemala. What concerns me, is that we are getting ready to go for pickup, and our agency has requested we take diapers and formula - as much as we can afford/ take. They claim they are receiving reports from multiples sources that Foster families are unable to care for the children, and we all know there is no state intervention to help. I don't have the statement handy to post.

So, one thing we can do, is pressure Congress to HELP, not hinder. After all our wonderful anti-immigrant administration and their DOS / CIS strong arm have had a huge hand in halting adoptions in Guatemala. Many people rose to the occasion for in-process and Joint Councils Guatemala 5000 initiative - where are they now?

Guatemala needs help getting on its feet. (In most / many aspects not just adoptions) This might be an option instead of bickering about it. If WE don't act soon, the humanitarian crisis will worsen or reach epic proportions.

There are a whole variety of ways that one can go about developing an ethical system. For instance, unbiased birth mother counseling centers can be opened in various locations around the country. Also, social workers can be trained and be required to have a qualification in child welfare/adoption in order for their birth mother summaries to be accepted by the Consejo. And, if they counsel birth mothers...that is another qualification area as this is a particularly important skill. The attorneys can also be trained and have a peer review board for ethical oversight (like the Bar Assn in the US). For that matter, the social workers can also have a peer review process for allegations of ethical wrong-doing. These are a few ideas, there are more. Obviously before a child is even deemed appropriate for intercountry adoption, there needs to be a variety of safety-net pieces in place. Can Guate afford to develop them OR does Guate care to develop them...? I don't know. However, day care opportunities would go a long way as well as opportunities in general for economic freedom from the oppression that is experienced by most birth moms. Reasonable and decent foster care would also be important--however the system that emerged under ICA is fueld by $$$ and not funded by the gov't. So, the answers are at multiple scales of the system. As for my comment about GETTING OUT OF THE WAY--I agree that the people who post here are not likely to get in the way. But, if you think that a Constitutional challenge is going to move things along...that's wrong and distracting. The stall tactics that were used to fight off implementing the Hague for years can work against the long-term interests of re-opening Guate in the post-Hague environment. Just my opinion, I'm more than happy to be wrong. No one gets anything out of being "RIGHT" in the face of this mess.

More than once here on GuatAdopt, I've seen commenters write about their worry that abortion will become legal in Guatemala and become a primary form of birth control. With all the adopted children, children in orphanages and children on the streets, it seems like there is a real need for *any* kind of birth control. What forms of birth control are readily available in Guatemala and do people (young women in particular) get educated about these options?

Dennis
I am glad that you are on your way to bringing your child home, there are still many of us out here who aren't.

Where did all of the PAP's and AP's go who participated in the Guatemala 5000? Many of us are still out here, and still writing, emailing, faxing, and calling politions.

I hope that all of the people who have been fortunate to be able to bring their children home are also still calling, writing, faxing and emailing.

The problem? Seems like now that the US has what it wants, nobody cares. The polititions most of the time do not even respond. The few that do, respond with goofy, uninformed answers (even though the information is given in our letters)answers such as discouraging anyone from adopting from Guatemala right now, information about the new Hague implementation in the US and in Guatemala and why it is being implemented, etc. Not a stitch of help!

If we can't get the senators and represetatives to help put pressure to help its own citizens (the PAP's) to bring their children home, how can we even think we will be able to get them involved to help the children of Guatemala who are not US citizens?

Does not mean I will stop trying, but it often does feel fruitless and a waste of my time.

Karenms1,
All great suggestions but you said in an earlier post,

"people need to pull together and do the right thing---including reforming the system" and
"you can gloom and doom or roll up your sleeves and develop an ethical system that we can all feel good about"

What PAP's or AP's who read here are able to go to Guatemala and develop these systems to implement these great ideas? Again I ask, what can us little PAP's and AP's do in the scheme of things?

Guess I am feeling helpless these days. I just want my child home that I have been waiting for for almost a year and a half.

anonymous

Dear Anonymous,

What can we do?

I keep asking myself that question, too.

I have my three babies home, one of which was stuck in the Hague 2003 mess, so I know what the waiting is like. I know that feeling of helplessness.

Then I wonder what organizations like Unicef are doing now? They give money to all kinds of programs to help children, are they giving any money to getting childcare set up in Guate? That is not a rhetorical question. I honestly don't know what they are doing in Guate now.

You can see I am the eternal optimist by mentioning their name! :)

Instead of petitioning clueless politicians, I wonder if we can put pressure on already-established organizations that do this sort of thing, or put our support to an emerging organization that is formed to do the on-the-street work to get these babies cared for. Anyone up for the job? :)

Believe me, I would if I could, but I have a different call in life . . .

I wonder, though, if that is the best way to use our efforts now.

Any other ideas? Do we know of any organizations that COULD do the work in Guate? I would love to throw my support behind someone doing this kind of work . . .

Karenms1,

I actually agree (don't be too shocked!) with the ideas that you suggest -- they all make perfect sense. The problem is that we don't live in a perfect world.

I ask you (seriously, because I do not know) whether there are any countries out there who have these types of systems in place? It seems that the problem the adoption community confronts is that we're stuck with a choice between imperfect systems that have some real problems associated with them or no system at all. While this is a "problem" for PAPs, it is a very real PROBLEM for very real children.

Countries that seem to have had positive changes (S. Korea, with its increase in domestic adoptions) have been able to do so because they've achieved a certain level of economic development that too many sending countries around the world lack.

Who's going to pay for these systems? I'm not saying this to pass the buck but really, a lot of great solutions can't get implemented due to realities on the ground.

Arguably, Guatemala would do better to attack the roots of the problem -- a process that will take a very long time -- than try to set up a "Cadillac" adoption system in the midst of other pressing social problems.

To follow on to Lee's comments, the need for adoption is obviously greatest in developing countries. Unfortunately, these are the same countries that cannot afford and lack much of the societal infrastructure necessary to implement the very good reforms that many people (including karenms1) have articulated. The problem is that many of these reforms involve significant changes to the social structure and just aren't practical in TODAY's Guatemala. They are important goals to continue working toward, not practical requirements for TODAY. (Yes, I am a pragmatist, not an idealist.)

Adoption is about the ONE child in need and has never been portrayed as a solution to a country's problems. The problem in Guatemala is not so much that the PROCEDURES were broken, though they could certainly use some targeted significant changes. The problem is the lack of ENFORCEMENT in a country where impunity reigns. As badly as reform is needed, the current efforts are badly misguided. Until the rule of law exists, preventing abuses in any process, including adoption, is an incredible challenge. So instead of true reform and enforcement of laws, which is difficult, the governments agreed to shutdown the system, which is easy.

In the meantime, thousands of individual children suffer and die needlessly. And let us adoptive parents not forget, for every one Guatemalan child that is adopted, there are several that suffer from abuse, neglect, and malnutrition and die at an early age. While the fight to keep adoptions open in some form continues, and is important, let us adoptive parents also remember to increase our support to the local grassroots organizations, those dedicated souls who literally are "saving children" every day.

Dear Anonymous:
We were blessed to bring our son, after 14 months, home in March.
The experience in country is one I will never forget. As happy as I was to hold my son and know that I would be bringing him home I was also saddened and stricken of heart with the many children that also needed people like us - families who had the love to give and the desire to do anything to bring them home. In the week that we were there I was slowly beginning to feel resentment for the Guatemalans who obviously had the means but for whatever reason are able to turn their heads to the children of their country in such great need...it is just too much to wrap my arms around.
Prior to leaving for GC my husband did research on the country and found that 40% of its population is 14 years or younger...does this not say it all?
Please know that although we are blessed to have finally brought our son home our heart and prayers are with each family that is waiting on this same opportunity - not to mention the thousands of children that will not have this option in the future.
I am only one person, and we are only one family, but we check this site constantly and will always support the needs of our fellow friends - today and tomorrow - just say the word on what we can do to truly make a difference.

bpo,

I for one agree that lack of enforcement lies at the root of the problem. I for one think that a lot more could have been done in that area and that it could have made a huge difference.

UNICEF though could care less about enforcement - it just wants to end adoptions, in fact if not in practice (for UNICEF and the Hague, it's great to have a hand in setting up fancy Central Authorities around the world that get together, pontificate about the rights of the child and the dangers inherent in unreglated adoptions, but do nothing to actually help kids).

I was one of the posters who asked Karenms1 for concrete reform ideas. Sheryl, if you go back and read my post, I think you will find that it did not attack her and it wasn't even trying to spark debate. I was looking for solutions which Karen very graciously provided. Unfortunately, although I would agree completely that the ideas she presented would go far to help reform the system, they are beyond our control and depend on the Guatemalan government (and right now I am less than hopeful that the Guatemalan government could, even it if wanted to, manage to create a working process). I also agree with Karenms1 that the constitutional challenge is the last thing that the adoption process in Guatemala needs right now. I wish the attorneys should try to work with the government to implement some kind of new system instead of thwarting it.

I firmly believe that inter-country adoption is a short-term solution to long-term endemic societal problems. Until Guatemala provides compulsory, free education the populace at large will never be able to rise economically to the point where ICA is unnecessary.

I think the most we can all do right now is find ways to support the children in need in Guatemala and hopefully find ways to make financial help sustainable for their families(ie microfinancing.) Thanks to whoever suggested taking a look at the programs provided by Holt International.

Lee and BPO,

I think you are onto the root of the problem. Okay, we can all agree that there was *corruption* in the adoption process to some degree or another. The new system (if you can call it that) just transfers that corruption from the private to the public sector. Call me a skeptic, but I do not believe that any government organization in any country can more effectively, efficiently, or honestly provide services better than a private organization.

The single biggest problem that Pres. Colom faces right now is *corruption* within the government itself. The main point that Susana is trying to make is that when you put all the power in the hands of one organization/entity you run the risk of corruption. I have heard all sorts of media reports about how there was no regulation with the old system. As someone who has been in process going on a year and a half and jumped through more REDICULOUS hoops than I care to mention, this type of statement gets my feathers ruffled! Our case has not gone without the smudge of corruption, but has been touched by the corruption of those in GOVERNMENT that want a little extra on the side. With the new "system" you have all the power in the hands of the CNA. Do you think there will be no corruption here? Perhaps, but only if there is no money and no POWER involved (they already have the power though). The safety checks that KarenMS suggests would help, but who is going to pay for them? The CNA is reportedly already underfunded, and Guatemala has no extra cash on hand. The new law has just taken away the income of orphanages/hogars and notaries. Who will pay?

I have heard Kevin say in the past (and I believe it to be true) that at its best, Guatemala is the best example of ICA. At its worst, Guatemala is the worst example of ICA. What really need(ed) to happen is for the best parts of Guatemala adoption to be preserved and for the corruption to be prosecuted.

Lo

PS Anyone else waiting on SCP BC?

Lo,Lee & bpo

Well said.UNICEF's goal was to end intercountry adoption.Stories of corruption gave the government the political cover to end adoptions.

Kerri,

My apologies for jumping too soon. Things did not descend into the ugly debate I anticipated!

Lo,

Are you on the yahoo group Estamos Esperando where a lot of waiting families hang out? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EstamosEsperando/

When we adopted our first two in 2000, we had no clue of the corruption that could take place.

While in process for our third in 2003, we learned so much more about the process and it seemed so solid and clear cut.

In any process, there is room for corruption. In listening to the plight of waiting families, I am appalled by those who have been offered the chance to expedite by paying an additional fee. Who gets this fee? It wasn't mentioned.

I've heard of at least one family that paid and their baby is home, while another family that didn't pay is still waiting.

While it is corrupt and appalling, and ethically wrong to pay an expediting fee, in the long run, having that baby home sooner is better for baby and family. What a choice to make!

Whoever said it is correct: having a central authority is not going to remove corruption. Only major social change is going to change that.

So, what can WE do to get the babies taken care of in the meantime? THAT, to me, is the real issue. That is what is going to keep Guatemala from becoming a Romania.

Are there any organizations working to put together or fund a good hogar that the CNA will accept? Will the CNA accept any of the existing hogars? This last question has always been unclear to me . . .

My husband and I have been waiting for our sons new birth certificate from SCP since the end of February, with no receive date in sight.

In response to Lo: My husband and I have been waiting for our sons new birth certificate from SCP since the end of February, with no relaease date in sight. We're told to hang in there....

Guate may become the next Romania, but I suspect that it will become the next Russia. That is, the adoption fees will come back into align with reasonable compensation as per the Hague. The country will reopen and then PAPs will be expected to slide $10,000USD in crisp one hundred dollar bills across the table for young and healthy children delivered quickly. There are many concerns upon us and this is just another.

Karenms1,

Russia is hardly a role model for an adoption system for a more important reason -- the state of orphanages in Russia.

While Guatemala certainly was not perfect, the children were generally (not always, but generally) well-cared for and developmentally on target. We should not lose sight of this in designing a good adoption system. It's simply not acceptable for children in orphanages/foster care not to receive good care.

Also, my understanding is that kids in Russia are not delivered so quickly and they certainly are often not very healthy. That is why PAPs often have physicians come with them from the US to assess children -- that is not something to aspire to in Guatemala, or anywhere else.

Lee wrote
>>We should not lose sight of this in designing a good adoption system.<<
The basic flaw in this statement is the word WE. WE are not designing any kind of adoption system. The government and people of Guatemala are going to do that (or not). It's a hard thing to think about. What you say is true, children in hogars and foster care awaiting adoption are generally well cared for. As the government of Guatemala it seems to me to be a very difficult position to say children being adopted and sent out of Guatemala to spend the rest of their lives will get excellent care, but the majority of the children who remain in Guatemala will not get close to that level of nutrition or health care. I know the government is not paying for that care, but the difference is striking.
I'm glad it's not my job.

Lee: You are correct on all. My point wasn't that Russia is a system to aspire to--in fact quite the opposite. My point was that Guatemala may become "Hague compliant" on paper by bring fees in line and developing some transparency--then under the table bribery becomes the expectation to make up for the losses related to the Hague's requirement for reasonable fees. So, for example, the lawyers may only charge $10,000 on the invoice plus other fees for care of the children--thereby becoming more inline with reasonable fees. THEN, a cash "tip" may become an expectation--Lauryn Galindo of the Cambodia adoption scandal called some of her illegal tactics "tips" which is a nice way to say bribe.

I know that "tips" are required in some, not all, Chinese adoptions. They can be quite hefty and take parents completely by surprise in some cases.

The only oversight in this scenario is the parents themselves, and we all know the fear of not rocking the boat!

Sheryl asked about the situation in El Salvador after the government stopped adoptions. It is a great question. I do not know the answer about El Salvador, but I can tell you a bit about what happened in Honduras, as my family is from there and I have visited often. Honduras did have an adoption program that has subsequently been closed, never to have opened again. In Honduras, you can visit hospitals where there are floors and floors of abandoned children. You can also see many, many children of all ages, wandering the streets - dirty, malnourished with protruding bellies full of parasites, eating from the garbage, drinking dirty river water, with many of these children growing up to become involved in petty theivery and a thriving drug running system. Thanks to UNICEF and others in Honduras, there is no hope for any of these children to be adopted.

We adopted from Guatemala with the intention of creating a home for a child where there would be love and opportunity. I believe others on this board feel the same way. My experiences in Honduras have taught me how these children suffer. They have absolutely no opportunity.

I completely understand the need to eradicate fraud and illegality in the adoption process. That is essential. But, this does not mean that you tear down the whole system.

We should not feel guilty for perpetuating anything bad by creating loving and caring adoptive families. UNICEF, the governments and other organizations, however, should feel ashamed at the poverty and the atrocities they are perpetuating by ignoring the needs of these children. Sometimes I do wonder how these people, who claim to be working for the benefit of children, can sleep at night.