So they want to interview the birth mothers. How silly it is! Where are the mothers of the children found abondoned in the street of Guatemala City? There are kids abondoned years ago for which the authorities have already tried to locate the parents o relatives by running photos and ads on newspapers and TV for years.
I guess for these cases they can ask unicef to spend money to run the ads on the Tv and the newspaper of the entire galaxy: may be the parents live on a different planet. I think that the real poor people are not the ones that do not have money in their pockets but the ones that have no brain in their skulls. And in all this mess there are a lot of them.

Vince

We were told yesterday, by our contact IN PGN, that the audit has been completed. That the birthmoms will NOT be called in, the CA will NOT have any say in finalization and that they were processing cases again yesterday and that they are hoping to push all the cases through to finalization ASAP to get the new system started.

Please don't grill me with questions, I know NOTHING else. Just passing along what I was told. The things I have heard from them in past have been DEAD ON TARGET with what has happened. Hope it's true --- I'm ready for my 18 month old daughter to come home.

If the CNA is to get involved, wouldn't this be illegal since all in-process adoptions were supposed to proceed under the old law?

Guatemomof2,

at what time did you talk to your source?

I talked to the PGN personally ( I am fluent in spanish )at 5 pm ET and they told me that all the adoption were stopped. I talked to my lawyer at 7 pm ET and she told me that she went personally to the PGN and that there they confirmed what they had already told me.

Thank for your answer.

Vince

CP,

your are right. That' s what my lawyer in Guatemala told me yesterday.

Vince

Vince -

I spoke with my contact around 8pm(central) last night. Every time something has "changed" in Guatemala regarding the adoptions, they have been DEAD ON with the information they have given. I hope to be able to trust that this time too! My baby needs to come HOME!!! Soon.....

I'm so sorry for not understanding, but all cases are stopped until WHAT? Like many of you I am waiting for two little girls who growing up without there Mommy and Daddy. So sad.

Last week my adoption agency told me that "the worst was still to come" I had no idea what she was talking about - maybe she was right. I hope not.

Just curious, how serious should we take the CNA getting involved? It seems that this is a similar situation to that in February (where cases ended up having to be registered with CA). Similar because information gets out that a Guatemalan governmental agency wants to get involved on in-process adoptions based on illegal grounds. Than the attorneys fight back and win. My only question is this, how much do we, as prospective parents need to worry right now that our in-PGN cases will be slowed down again because of the Guatemalan government changing course mid-stream?

waiting for 2, Did you ask your agency what she meant by that?

waitingfor2 -
the insensitivity of the comment "the worst was still to come" is beyond belief. What insensitive moron at an adoption agency would say such a thing? I would like to be in charge of that person's annual review. As if it isn't bad enough not knowing if these kids will ever come home we have the people working for us instilling everyone's own version of Nightmare on Elm street in our collective, anxiety ridden, heart broken hearts, brains and souls. UGHHH!!!!If it was OK to curse here I would. Instead I am just begging anyone who can fix this to do so.. please.. we're dying out here.

Nightmare on Elm Street? Silly to interview mothers? And what of the adoptees who grow up to learn that their mothers were coerced, that they tried to stop the adoption and could not because they were poor, that they and their other children suffered their entire lives with guilt and ostracism? Do you want your children -- who may be those adoptees -- to read these posts?

The majority of the children who are in the process of being adopted have a mother and a father in Guatemala. To those of you who are railing against the injustice of the process, instead of screaming of how *you* are suffering without *your* child, please keep in mind the lifelong consequences to those children whose adoptions were tainted with corruption. They will pay long after they become *your* child.

For the sake of all adoptive parents, pre and post, AND their children, please consider the power of your words to influence how we all will be judged. Please consider listening to adult adoptees, especially those who have been adopted internationally, or those from the Baby Scoop Era. Our children, one day, are going to *need* to know that people tried their best to protect them when they did not have a voice and that their adoptive parents did NOT want them at all costs.

Waitingfor2-

I think everybody out here would like to know the name of your agency and its e-mail address.

Vince

Elizabeth-

yes it is silly to keep interviewing the mothers.How many times they have to be interviewed? One, two, three? And again, there a lot of cases of children abondoned and living in orphanages for years before they are matched to adoptive parents. For these cases the biological parents were never known. Nobody wants to adopt children that can live with their bio-parents. You can be sure that adopting parents don' t want to split a family apart. And they don't want to be part of criminal scheme that is designed to steal children with the purpose of give them in adoption.

Vince

GuateMomof2 you're my new favorite person! I so hope you are right.

Elizabeth,

I do not recall ever reading a post from a PAP indicating that they wanted to adopt a child 'at all costs.' What you are seeing in these recent posts is the toll that the PROCESS has taken on people's emotions. I will only speak for myself, but when I become saddened or frustrated by delays, it is because I am concerned for the child that I am trying to adopt. She is an older child, and with each passing month, her transition will become more difficult for her. Her developmental delays will not be properly addressed, and the gap will continue to widen. Our birth mom is a single mother, with no family to help take care of the child. She was relinquished quite some time ago, and sits in temporary care as the process drags on. The birth mom has been interviewed by the social worker in family court, and again by our own embassy. She has not parented this child in a very very long time, and has no intention of parenting her in the future. How much longer should these types of cases be put on hold? How is this in the best interest of this child? While I agree that there has been corruption in the system, many PAPs now feel the children are paying dearly for it. We do not say 'give us a child at all costs' we say please put a process in place that is fair and timely and if the child is indeed an orphan, let them be placed with a family who will love them and care for them. Deb

Kevin and Kelly,
I thank you for all the information you post, it always helps me. This is my question and of course me fear at the same point. If we have DNA results connecting our baby with her birthmother and the SW interview from family court saying why she decided to have her baby adopted, then why would they need to interview them again. I know this isn't fact yet, but my worst fear would be her changing her mind. I know that may be selfish, but we are so close to having this adoption complete with being on our third time in PGN. I am just so scared right now and I feel like there is nothing I can do. I really don't like feeling helpless.

Regards,
Sarah

Jim-

I just hope that they are right this time too and I can continue being your "new favorite person"! Let me clarify that my contact is NOT affiliated with my agency. If that were the case, I'd never believe them! :-)

It seems to me that is President Colom is visitng the US and the CCAI, then we may want to focus on this meeting, and expressing our concerns to the CAI. Yes, the Guatemala government should ensure that all children in process are definitly children who classify as orphans. But to do so without throwing up roadblock after roadblock which delays these children getting to their forever home.

Elizabeth,
I am not one to comment on here much but your post sent chills. First let me state that being a mom of both biological and adopted children, I can tell you that we NEVER have wanted or asked ANYONE to look the other way so that we could get our kids home at all cost. We have been waiting for "our children" for 18 months.

In that time one of their birthmoms did change her mind and come to get "our" little girl. Do you want to know why? To take her 8 hours out of the city and SELL HER for money. This was ONLY the 4th time she had attempted to do this. So don't tell me that I am wrong for wanting the gov't to get their decisions and laws made and stick to them. I am fighting for a child who now sits in an orphanage and her birthmom is in jail for a very long time. Now after this long, we have to wait for incessive changes as this precious child continues to grow without the love of ANY PARENTS!!

I also don't know any adoptive parent(and I know hundreds of them) who ever wants a child that the birthmom or birth family wanted to keep.

Yes there has been corruption in Guatemala, as there is anywhere, even in the US. We have adopted children internationally and domestically. Let me tell you there is as many horrific things that take place here but they are just done in a much more "civilized" manner, since we in the US think we have it all together. Our foster care system is joke!! Children are lost and abused daily and there are no wide spread campaigns on the news or newspaper like you have seen against Guatemala in the past year.

The birthmoms are interviewed in the beginning of the process by a social worker with one of the courts.

ONLY in Guatemala are there 2 DNA test, and the birthmom has the entire process to change her mind. She has to sign off 4 times, not once.
That means that after 18 months of waiting and visiting and growing to love these children, their birthmoms can decide to not sign at the end of the process and get them back if that is their desire. That is their right, and I have no problems with that. But please do not come on here or anywhere else and tell families that have sacrificed and loved unconditionally without any guarantees that it is wrong of us to desire to finish a process that has taken huge tolls on all of our lives. Our lives revolve around giving these two children a loving home and family. I have 5 other children who pray, talk to and love these two precious ones in Guatemala, which by the way aren't newborn babies, but older children who have suffered many hurts and other things we here in the US could never imagine. So this is not a walk in the park nor will it be when they come home. They need a family to help them grow and heal from what they have experienced in their young lives.

If you aren't an adoptive parent, you can't understand our hearts so please don't judge us for loving and fighting for these children. For some of them it is their only hope for a future and a family. Also, if you personally have not walked through the system in Guatemala, there is NO POSSIBLE way for you to understand all of the details.

No one here believes there should be a blanket statement that all adoptions should be signed off on without proper laws and oversight.

So please be careful how you accuse and judge others. You do not know where we have all been and walked in our lives as well as what some of these children's life stories are.

GuateMomof2, Have you heard any news today? I am so worried!! I WANT MY CHILD HOME AND YES I CONSIDER HER MINE!!!!

Elizabeth -

Please be very careful with your words. If you are attempting to ruffle feathers, you are treading on dangerous ground! I am very put off by your reply because you do NOT know my heart or my story.

And as Momof7 said, NONE of us want a family ripped apart. The birthmother has AMPLE opportunity to come back and that IS their rightful choice! Please remain respectful because PAP's in this process go through hell too. We live EVERY DAY in fear of hearing that something has happened to the child we have grown to love and have welcomed into our families. Knowing all the while that we might have to face that possibility. BUT we embrace the full experience in the hopes that we can bring our child home. For some of us, this is our ONLY option to grow our family!

Elizabeth -

Your post seemed a bit insensitive to what these parents have been through and how many times delays have been advertised to them as making sure that everything is OK. The comments are very much out of frustration. Like the adoptive parents here, I don't see a much cleaner system for all these delays of the past....and that is what drives the frustration.

I don't know a single parent that would say that they want what you are suggesting. In fact, most of the stalls have been for the sake of "looking" good than to actually go after the bad guys. These children suffer the consequences (attachment issues, health issues and developmental delays) and the parents must navigate a whole new set of issues.

The frustration you see here is from parents that have been told their cases are being reviewed again and again and again....9 months go by, 10 months, 11, 12, 13 etc....and the big kickout is over the color of ink. Better yet, lets request something new that is near impossible to get and still tells you nothing about the legitimacy of the case. Then we have to deal with local CIS offices not renewing fingerprints or I171s in any reasonable timeframe...again while these children wait.

There is no doubt that more needs to be done to clean up the system....I think most Adoptive parents are ALL for that if they were certain that it was done in a reasonable manner and not just to make a political statement. But if it wasn't done in the 9, 10, 11 months of sitting on someone's desk (for the sake of "slowing down the number of children leaving the country")...then its a little hard to trust that it will be done now.

I am hoping and praying that if there are additional delays, then they are because REAL investigations and checks are being done in a REASONABLE fashion.

But for someone who sees their child waiting in an orphanage indefinitely, it is a tad hard to wrangle up some trust that things are going to be any different now.

Kelly
guatadopt.com

(NOTE: I did mix a post and an email and associated them incorrectly with Elizabeth....what I get for reading so MANY posts while I am clearing them). I did change my comment slightly because of this. I agree that I would hope that parents would be careful how they express their frustration. That is a legitimate point. But I would also encourage others to understand the the frustration of hearing this month after month).

NA ---

No, I have not heard anything today. With it being Sunday, I don't expect to for atleast a few days. Still praying our contact is right again!!! Hugs --- I want my baby home too!

To those of you mentioning the safeguards - which SHOULD be ample - please be sure to read what I wrote in my writer's corner here (http://www.guatadopt.com/WritersCorner/KevinsCorner/2008/04/what_i_would_do_if_i_was_head.html) as it explains how these have been bypassed. An easier way to find it than the long link is to look at the top of our homepage...

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

In defense of Elizabeth, I don't believe she was accusing anyone of bad motives, only reminding us what our words might sound like to others. I am an adoptive parent of five, both domestic and Guatemala, plus some home grown. Three from Guatemala were abandonments, which took anywhere from 14months to over three years. Our last one, at the age of 8yrs turned into a relinquishment. She came home at 11yrs. Our first came home in 1998, so we've been involved before and after the 2003 Hague and up to last November, just before this all hit the fan. I share this to hopefully show my credibility. Yes, we go through the wringer for these kids. Ins and outs of PGN, ad infinitim. But if there was corruption (which anyone not living under a rock for the past few decades would know), and there is now a new system (being) put into place, can we not see why some of the things previously declared to be true for each case might now be in question? Honestly, if I were taking over after so much corruption, I would seriously want to investigate, to make certain that no child currently in the system is there illegally or because of coercion. The corruption has been widespread, so at what point do you start when you are checking into a child's legal status as an orphan? I don't believe Guatemala has any responsibility to just trust the US Embassy's or BCIS's word for it. Many people along the way are on the "payroll", so how would they know who to trust? It's been a very sad situation for quite a very long time. I would not be doing the job I was sworn in to do, if I just let all current cases, which arrived at PGN under the corrupt system, simply go through. As much as I hate this is happening to any family or any child truly abandoned or relinquished for honest reasons, what Elizabeth says is true. We as APs, in spite of our own pain during this long and frustrating process, need to understand and see the need for absolute certainty regarding our child's legal status. We think we know our child's history, but the truth of the matter is we are only taking the word of someone who may or may not have a vested interest, who may or may not really care about children, or who may strictly view this as the very lucrative business adoption has been for a great many of the people involved. We simply must wait this out for the sake of any child we come to parent. I can't imagine what a human being would ever do with the information that they might have been taken from their birth family, sold, or in any way arrived at the point of relinquishment or abandonment under even the slightest question about ethics. As hard as this is, as gut wrenching as this waiting game is, for the sake of these children we truly love, we simply have to wait, to hang onto hope, and to stand 100% behind ethical adoptions. This is not suggesting, as I don't believe Elizabeth was suggesting, that anyone is for any other kind of adoption. But to truly stand for it, we have to be willing to sacrifice. And yes, children will suffer some. APs will suffer some. As parents we are guarenteed to suffer even more, as is the nature of raising children and watching them make mistakes or get hurt. But in the end, a lifetime is not too small a thing, that any of us would want to live ours with doubts, nor have our child live with deep hurts and questions about their own history and legal adoption.

And if we're going to tell others to watch their words, accuse others of not knowing where we are coming from, I believe that applies to everyone of us. How many know exactly where Elizabeth is coming from? Maybe you know her story, but I don't.

Kelly,
Thank you for your post.
Lizzie
Mama to Anarosa since May, 2004
Also Mama to Migdalia, anxiously waiting for 17 months now to hold her

Mom of 7! THanks for your post... We have adopted both domestically and internationally and we also saw horrific corruption in the domestic system and foster care. We fought the parents in court for 4 years... they wanted their child but were not capable of caring for her, both are in and out of prison and bio dad is a sex offender of children, SO we did want our daughter "at all costs" Not because we were desperate for a child (which is fine too) but because we had to be the voice of the child who was too young and too innocent to have her own voice. We also adopted ababy girl from Guatemala (who came home in January) and now are waiting for 2 older children 8&11 years old siblings who are desperate for a mom and dad... though they have a mom in guatemala they have told us over and over "We just want a home, a mom and a dad"..... I would hate to tell my children that their mom was asked over and over and over again if she really wanted to "give them up" and have the answer be YES! Let's rub salt in to the wound.... let's tell them they really were wanted by no one... I have been in process for over a year with these older kids and the rules keep changing.... I thought the paper work and 1st DNA was plenty extensive when we started and since then a second DNA and CA, have all been added, and this does not stop the corruption for those who want to produce it. ENOUGH ALREADY! Let these poor, innocent, voiceless children COME HOME!!!! AND for those in process KEPP FIGHTING AT ALL COST!

I don't think anyone is accusing Elizabeth of anything but simply responding to her post and the statements she made.When you choose to make statements and post your thoughts publicly others have the right to respond. She threw her opinions out there thus so did other people.

I have no clue where she comes from but she posted on a topic and therefore got responses.

As for us "truly knowing" our childrens stories. We do because we hired PI's and attornies to find our childrens families. Being adoptive parents already, we know the importance of each child knowing about their family and heritage. We also wanted to know that it was their choice for their children so that one day we can assist our children in finding their birthfamilies if they desire. In our home, our children's birthmoms are constantly referred to as hero's for their sacrifice and choice to give life to their children and then place them in a family forever. For most, NOT ALL, birthmoms they are the strongest people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. I also am very close friends and family of many adult adoptees whose stories and lives I have listened to.

I am prepared with as much info as I can possible get my hands on for all of my adopted children about their families. We have attempted to meet and open relationships with their birth families. More difficult in Guat but still possible. Our desire and heart for our children is to fully know and understand who they are, who their families are,where they have come from, and how blessed we are to have the opportunity to be a part of their lives.

Once again, no one knows the length that any of us have personally gone or will continue to go for any child who needs an advocate. That doesn't take away our right to express our opinions.

I for one am thrilled about the changes and new things in Guatemala. It has needed to change for a long time but it doesn't take away the desire to have our children come home nor the hurt that we all experience waiting through the process.

The main problem here is that you can't try to compare emotions and experiences to out do each other. Birth families and adoptive families all go through suffering, pain, happiness and many other feelings during this process. Most of all it is suppose to be about the children and for a large percent of the children in this world, adoption is their only chance for a family.

There are also many victims in situation where corruption is involved and I am sure all of us pray that would not be a part of our lives but we are all aware of the possibilities.

Because this could happen should we just all turn our backs and stop adopting at all because there might be a chance something wasn't done correctly or above board. That is a question, in my opinion, that only an individual family can answer for themselves.

As for our family, we are very blessed and overwhelmed with how God chose to bring us all together. It is an honor to be a part of each of their lives. If I could make the entire world right for children and their birth families I would but all I can do is my part. For that I stand strong and I will defend what I believe in and what I know as truth to someone who doesn't necessarily know all the details or circumstances.

That is not being judgemental or harsh. It is educating to know the facts and not just make assumptions. If you are involved in Guat adoptions right now, you know the state of what is happening. Elizabeth didn't state anything new to us that we all haven't faced in our adoptions. We are all aware that our children have a father and mother in Guatemala and that there has been much corruption. What she did was tell how horrible it was that we didn't want endless changes to the laws and process.

Once again, if you chose to make your opinions public then others completely have the right to respond whether they agree or disagree.

Vince - I did ask my agency what they meant by "the worst was yet to come" and she said that she was responding to MY comment to her saying something to the effect of "I hope now that we are back in PGN for the 3rd time, things will go much more smoothy". It doesn't make me feel much better, but my agency really is full of nice people who are trying to help me and, at least I think, be honest with me, they just dont have very much information - not matter how much I push.

I just want what's best for our children, I hate feeling so powerless in the ability to get my kids home!

Sorry if I upset anyone with my post - I just miss the girls.

I think the rights of the birth-moms are of concern on both sides of the argument. What about the mothers who have consentually and legally relinquished their children because they truly want them to find families who will love and provide for them. How many more times are we going to drag them to court and interviews to confirm the hardest decision they ever made in their lives. It is an incredibly selfless act to give up a child. To be repeatedly asked your intention, to be dragged away from your work and family time and again to validate a decision you made months or years ago is cruel and unecessary. Seeing the photograph of our birth moms holding their children was enough for me to know how difficult their decision was and how committed they were to getting their children to a family who could care for them. It is unfortunate that so many have to suffer for what few have done to corrupt the system.

momto7 wrote: **Most of all it is suppose to be about the children and for a large percent of the children in this world, adoption is their only chance for a family.**
mom, I was really taken aback by this statement. Is there a word missing in this sentence? Do you really think a LARGE percent of the children in the world need to be adopted to have a family? Maybe your definition of *large* or *family* is something I don't understand. I've never heard this idea expressed, and I wonder about it.
thanks, vj

OK Kevin or anybody else for this matter-

Any new updates?

Clinging to the computer and nobody's gonna get it away from me today-
Michelle :)

VJ,
I am sorry, I don't think I stated that in a way that may have been easy to understand. Instead of stating a large percent of children, it would have been better to state a large percent of orphans.

There are over 14 million orphans in the world, meaning children who have NO family at all or children of families who have chosen to place their child/children for adoption(and that number grows daily). Only about 250,000 children are adopted each year. So looking at that number there is still a large percent of orphans that need a family.

I apologize for not stating that clearer.

Our son has been home for 7 weeks and just turned a year old. While I am so thankful to God for allowing him to come home, my heart breaks for my friend, and all of you, who still has her son in Guate. I am praying for all of you and your children. I am praying for all of the leaders in Guate. who are making the decisions. I am also praying for all of your files, so that any one who comes in contact with the files will do the right thing and allow these files to be completed once and for all.
May God grant you a peace that surpasses all understanding while you wait for your babies to come home!

My agency, which unfortunately, is really corrupt, likes to tell the District Attorneys office and BBB etc., that their adoptions are clean and the proof is in the fact that the US Embassy did their research and approved this adoption by sending us our pre-approval. Therefore, even the embassy thought the children were available.

I know for a fact no one at the US embassy ever did a bit of research on our first referral because she was back with her bio Mom for 2 months before we got our Pre Approval. I wish they had really interviewed her then.

M&G

This is an update I rc'd from my agency today:

"Today, the attorneys met with PGN and were told the good news that PGN will keep the cases currently in process but the new attorney general and his staff intends to review all cases. Unfortunately, the attorneys are anticipating a 6-8 week delay in processing all cases while this review takes place.

In addition, we are aware of rumors that all foster families have been ordered to turn the children over to the orphanage system. At this time, our attorneys have not heard anything about this so we hope it is just that – a rumor. "

Anyone else hear anything from their atty/agency ?

GuateMomof2,

Have you heard anything else from your contact today??

Lynn -
Did your agency say anyhting about signed and sealed cases?? 6-8 weeks is along time!!!

Gina-

My contact in GC is sticking to the story that I posted over the weekend. Pretty much the exact same details that I posted before. No real differences - not enough to comment on anyway. Praying that they are still on target so we can get our kids home ASAP!! Hang in there!

Gina....
No they did not. I don't know if anyone knows that yet....
We will all just keep praying for everyone's case to get a swift and fair review....!!!
Lynn

Ann - thanks for re-expressing my thoughts so well!

Kelly et al. I posted (again) on this topic on the main forum (the 'kidnapped kids' thread) and I hope it explains better why I am sometimes impelled to post, even when I have low expectations for the reception my words will receive. I do not think I'm being clueless, nor insensitive. I do realize that I'm annoying as heck -- even tho' I *rarely* post. I'm sorry if my infrequent posts generate so much frustration. I do think that my perspective is a rather unique one, and valid. If you don't read my other post, please allow me to say that I am NOT accusing any pre-or post-adoptive parent of advocating or condoning unethical practices. My heart breaks for the children who are caught in this limbo -- especially the ones who are in orphanages and who might not have a loving environment.

Elizabeth,

I can vougue for you. You're okay, definitely not naive, and definitely against ethical adoption.

I didn't even realize if was you posting.

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Ann and Elizabeth, thank you for expressing your opinion on this matter, one that you know may not be well received. It is important to remind one another of the not-so-pleasant truths, though, and you two have done that. I think everyone involved in the adoption process would do well to expect delays instead of smooth sailing throughout the process and try to be strong and patient. Yes, it is important to be aware of everything going on behind the scenes and be pro-active but at the same time, it is even more important to not feel personally victimized by each little hicc-up along the way.