Kevin, any idea how many notarial adoptions are still awaiting birthmom interviews and thus could be affected by this deadline? thanks, Lisa

I have seen a few posts on forums where people said that got out of PGN without a BMI. How is that possible if this is saying all cases without BMI's will be turned over to abandonment processes? Just wondering -- that's kind of confusing.

Kevin - can you please get further clarification. there are many cases that have not even reached the PGN stage yet - what about them and we have been on the rectification side of pGN for months and still have not had ours. PLEASE ADVISE on what this means for these cases. this does not make any sense.

thanks,
Karen

Scary for those of us who are waiting to get IN to PGN after long FC or embassay delays. Please keep us posted on what this will really mean.
Thanks, Apreciate all you do to find accurate information.

Why is this being allowed? These interviews are not even legal. Our cases were to be grandfathered in. I dont understand how this can even happen!

I have no idea how may cases are left to have an interview.

Also, we are trying to get clarification on some questions PAPs have. But I am 99% sure that cases need not be at the PGN stage in order to have the interview conducted. PGN has the list of grandfathered cases so they know which are legit. I believe that your attorneys can get it scheduled no matter where in the process the case is (assuming it was registerd with CNA)..

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Does anyone have any idea when the new law goes into effect? Or when will new referrals be available?

I asked our atty a couple of months ago if we could go ahead and schedule our BMI (we are not in PGN) based on what the CNA said at the time...that you didn't have to wait for an appt to be set for you and I was told that he didn't think it was a good idea to do that. Now I am so frustrated because possibly could have had it done and not had to worry. How are they possibly going to get the rest of all these cases interviewed in 3 weeks ? Just because a BM has not been interviewed does not make the child abandoned....it is ludicrous! I hope we have some official clarification soon....I am already on stress overload with paperwork renewals, agency closing and constantly worrying about what other obstacle will be thrown at us....
Please everyone pray we get through this hurdle!

My understanding, after talking with informed individuals in Guatemala, is that some lawyers are failing to bring BMs forward and don't really expect to do so in some cases. As a result, maybe this deadline is one to leverage every BM who is possible to bring forward and identify which BMs will not be interviewed. And, then if the BM is not found it would logically become an abandonment case for the judges to decide. I know that what I've said will likely be debated here (legality, etc.) and that's fine but we have to be honest, its their country and they decide how the laws are carried out administratively! Of course, some of the BMs are long gone and want nothing more to do with this process others have something to hide (i.e. receiving money) while others maybe frightened due to previous coercion/poor treatment by the various actors in this whole mess. So, if they don't come forward--they are abandoments to some degree. Everyone knew going into this final stretch that Guate adoptions would be difficult as the Embassy stated over and over again.

Our BM was interviewed 4 weeks ago when she came in for the first dna test. Since that time we have received PA and are now in PGN. Will another interview be needed or has this requirement been met? Thanks

Any word on when Guatemala will re-open? I am still on my agency's waiting list.

Our birth mother has been interviewed in investigations twice, but I don't think that will satisfy as the PGN interview. Plus, since PGN is the one who keeps sending our case back to investigations, I don't see how they would agree to a BMI at this point. I feel like I am caught in a never ending game of musical chairs.....

Rose:
If you have paid substantial money to your agency, I'd be worried. There are NO guarantees when Guate will open and I KNOW that most agencies will not be allowed to operate in Guate. The Guate gov. is going to select a few US agencies to work with (less than 10 from what I've been told from a highly reliable source). So even if Guate opens again in 2009, your agency is being more than presumptious about their standing in Guate. I'd be worried about any agency that is promising ANYTHING right now because they have NO WAY of doing that. And, to accept money when you know you cannot without fufill a contract is a serious issue that could end up with a judge deciding the outcome. Otherwise, it just seems unethical.

I know in our case and three other cases with our agency and the same lawyer, the birth mothers signed over POA after their first interview and dna testing. In their minds, they were finished with the process. They didn't abandon their children. They thought they had fulfilled all of their obligations before they left, and now they can't be located. The fact that the Guatemalan officials have changed the rules half way through the game is doing nothing but hurting our children (not to mention driving us PAP's insane)!!!

We are also on our agency's wait list and would like to know it ther is any word on when Guatemala will re-open. (We finally got our I-171H on July 12th after a 17 month and 23 day wait!)

Is there any clarification on the CNA posting. This seems pretty significant to get all remaining bmi done in the next three weeks or cases will be tuned over to a "competent judge." Kevin can you clarify that turning cases over to a competent judge indeed means the case turns into abandoment, as I don't think the cna post stated the case would automticaly become anbondoment case. What is weird, no one seems to think this is a big deal. I have contaced our agency and they are checking with their attorneys in Guatemala - has anyone heard more from their contacts in Guatemala? Thank you

Some months back, someone posted the PGN telephone number to follow up on cases. Can someone please re-post that number?

to clarify, many posters seem confused by the Guatemalan-adoption term "abandonment" - it often has nothing to do with a child being literally abandoned, and is more properly called a "termination of parental rights" - which would indeed seem the logical way to proceed in adoption cases where the birthmom (legal parent) cannot or will not appear for her PGN interview. The judge will simply examine the case and, if it is deemed appropriate, terminate the birthmom's parental rights and allow the child's adoption to proceed. The rub (and of course there is one) is that there will be a search for birthfamily willing to raise the child, prior to the birthmom's rights being terminated. If birthfamily comes forward and can prove their ability *by local standards* to raise the child, legal custody of the child is granted to birthfamily. The term "abandonment" is misleading and confusing in this context. Best of luck to all affected. Lisa

Wendy---
We have been playing musical chairs as well---into pgn then to investigations---repeat--repeat--now repeat again! It is so so aggravating.

hi kevin or others, Could you please clarify if a case has to be back into PGN before a birth mother interview appointment can be set? We have been in PGN for 1 year and have had 5 previos and are currently out on another previo and hoping to be resubmitted very soon. Also, we do not understand how some cases have been released as an "out" from PGN without having to have a birthmother interview. How can it be legal that some would have to do it, some would not, and others given a deadline? What about other cases that have been grandfathered, but haven't made it to the PGN stage yet? Would it be possible for you to get some clarification on all of this from our US Government officials. What ever happened to our rights to finish these grandfathered cases under "old Law?" If they are going to change the rules to having these interviews, then shouldn't all cases be given ample time to get the interviews done? The Guatemalan president and the CNA need to explaitn how it can be in the best interest of these children who have been waiting so long to get to their forever families. Thanks for your time and information. you are much appreciated!

We are stalled at the family court level for more than a year now and are working with SJI-adoption supervisors to mediate with the facilitator. They suggest that cases presented to, or in, PGN that do not have the BM Interviews completed by August might be transferred to the Court of Minors for a decision and possible BM interview. If no BM, the judge may determine an abandonment; if BM appears then back to Family Court for a ruling. They seem unwilling to speculate if this pulls the case out of the Grandfather queue for notarial adoptions. Does this scenario match anyone else's prediction? Also has anyone still in FC or thereabouts had success with requesting a BM interview and has proof that it happened?

do you have to be in pgn to have the bm interview?

could they have the interview and then just attach it to our file?

or does it have to follow a certan criteria step by step?

does anyone know???
m.

You do not have to be in PGN to have a birth mother interview. Back in June the CNA posted how to contact them, no appointment needed, just show up. We translated it on our June page. CNA Update of June was:

"II. That they should contact their lawyers and instruct them to come to the Attorney General's Office, introducing the children and their biological mothers, to be able to conduct a verification in the shortest possible time, in the best interests of children. The purpose of this requirement is to verify the origin of children, to avoid the adoptive families problems later. YOU DO NOT NEED TO WAIT FOR A SUBPOENA OR APPOINTMENT, you can request one and gladly ARE accommodated. Call these telephones: 24148787 extensions, 4005-4008 and 4009."

ASG is also providing assistance in finding birthmothers. Here is some more info from ASG, which we posted on our forum last week, regarding searching for birthmothers for the interview and an explanation on the latest CNA announcement:

"You have probably heard already that an announcement was made yesterday, August 7, 2008 by the CAN communicating that all Birth Mothers must be interviewed by August 31. The cases that do not make this dead line will be forwarded to Family Court for the final decision.

An adoption process at Family Court is much longer, and the risk of the case not being approved are higher. Unlike PGN, a Judge will not just issue previos/kick outs. If he decides a the file is incomplete or there is an error in it, he can stop the adoption for these reasons and that can be the end of the process.

I am finding out more information to clarify the extent of this announcement and I will make sure to communicate it to all our clients, but in the mean time I want to inform you that Adoption Supervisors Guatemala has joined efforts with a Company called Bio Family Trace in order to assist as many adopting parents as we can in locating the Birth Mother so the interview can take place before August 31.

Bio Family Trace is a company that offers investigation services and has proven to us several times already, to be very effective, fast and successful in locating biological families, and in this case birth mothers.

If you need assistance in locating the Birth Mother on your own case or if you know somebody that needs it, please write or have your friends write to HYPERLINK "mailto:lamc@biofamilytrace.com" lamc@biofamilytrace.com, and a case manager will write back immediately and provide all the necessary information."

Hope this helps.
Marie, Guatadopt.com

PS- The website for the biomother searches is: http://www.biofamilytrace.com/

Please specify that it is for the
CNA interview, to expedite their
response to you.

Marie, Guatadopt.com

What about the people who have been in PGN and have had the BM interview but are still awaiting PGN approval? Are they going to be okay?

Lisa,

Just to clarify some of what you stated about the term “abandonment”. The Courts of Childhood and Adolescence have jurisdiction over those cases where the rights of the children or adolescents are threatened or violated. The process starts with any complaint of such threats or violations, and its purpose is to restore the rights of the children and adolescents. One of the rights that it is violated very often, is the right of the child to a family, which happens when the child is abandoned by his/her parents. The investigation of the process is handled by the PGN, who sends social workers to try to find the birth parents or their relatives, in order to provide the child of a family. If they cannot find any relatives, or if they are found but either the birth mother or the relatives are deemed unfit to care for the child, such child is ruled “adoptable” and has to be placed by the CNA with a suitable Guatemalan family within ten days or with a foreign family if no Guatemalan family is available.

Any American person who has a valid 1-600 still may adopt a Guatemalan child who has been ruled adoptable according to the above mentioned system. To do so, the old rules apply to get the US visa and the new rules, to do the Guatemalan adoption. In this new system, the foreign adoptive parents must present to the CNA a dossier according to Art. 42 of the Adoption Law.

The “termination of parental rights” that you mentioned is a different matter that is tried before a Family Judge and happens when the parent does something against the child, that causes him/her to lose those rights, but as I said, it is a Family Law matter, not an adoption related matter.

The CNA has no legal rights to threat the notaries with sending to the judges, those cases where the birthmothers do no do the illegal interviews at the PGN. It is not, as you say, “…the logical way to proceed in adoption cases where the birthmom (legal parent) cannot or will not appear for her PGN interview. The judge will simply examine the case and, if it is deemed appropriate, terminate the birthmom's parental rights and allow the child's adoption to proceed…”. The notaries present the files to the PGN for a review by that entity of the legality of the adoption process. To keep the files as hostages, demanding that the birth mothers be brought so they can humiliate them, intimidate them and force them to derail the adoption, is totally unacceptable. Unfortunately, the adoption lawyers are tired of fighting an unequal war, where the media has accused them of every felony in the book, when the lawyers are the only ones who helped the birthmothers and their children, while the rest of the Guatemalans ignored their plight, and the fact that one half of the Guatemalan children are hungry, sick and have no access to medical services. For that reason, many lawyers accepted to jump through this new hoop. The problem is that not all the mothers can be located or want to be located. Many adoptions have taken more than a year, and in that time, many things change. If the cases are brought to the courts of the Childhood and Adolescence, they will start as the children being “rescued” by the PGN, and no word of the adoption will be mentioned. It is not as you say that “…The judge will simply examine the case and, if it is deemed appropriate, terminate the birthmom’s parental rights and allow the child’s adoption to proceed”. That is not so. The adoption will be totally derailed and a new adoption process, according to the new rules, would have to be started. Even if I am as tired as the rest of my colleagues, I will not allow that the CNA who has nothing to do with the grandfathered adoptions, derail them, just because we do not fulfill a requirement made up by them and who has no legal grounds. I hope that when the moment comes, all the Guatemalan lawyers who handle adoptions resist the abuse of power of the CNA, who unable to show any accomplishments oftheir own, are trying to show as such, the way they prevent many children to have permanent loving homes.

Susana Luarca, Attorney at Law, Guatemala City.

Kimberly, yes, once you're cleared from the BMI the process continues as usual.

cassandra - heres the number for pgn
English:
011-502-2414-8787 when the "system" answers type 2037.

or this phone number:

011-502-2248-3200 ext 2037

just as a warning, I have found that they give you the "2 more weeks" answer if you speak English. Much better in Spanish.

Kimberly,

We had our BMI a little over 3 weeks ago and have not heard anything about where we are in PGN. Do you know how long it takes after the BMI that you get out of PGN, 2nd DNA, Visa, Passport etc?

Thanks, Victoria

I take issue with a few points in Susana's post. If everything Susana says about lawyers were true, Guatemala would not be in the mess it finds itself in. Unfortunately, there has been much confusion, deception, corruption, illegalities in enough cases through the years that adoptions have been suspect for quite some time. If it were indeed all about the children, attorneys would not be clearing $20,000 per case. I know it to be a fact that their part of the process and paperwork can be completed for a tiny fraction of that cost, by attorneys who do indeed care about children. Somewhere along the line, becoming an adoption attorney in Guatemala became very big business and things went downhill from there. Years ago, this was not so. Unfortunately, lies and deception are probably much more the norm than any of us would like to believe. We were blessed to work with people who are well known among attorneys and officials for their flawless ethics, who are mistreated and whose cases are "stalled" because they will not play the games. In the case of Guatemalan adoptions, it's not always true that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. It might truly be a wolf in sheep's clothing.