so are these 883 cases no longer grandfathered under the notarial system? If so, I sure hope the DOS is going to raise a ruckus about this...

If the adoptions are to be processed as abandonments, do the families who accepted and paid to process these adoptions get "first dibs" on the children when/if they get their COAs?

what a mess. very sad for all.

Lee

Our case is amongst the 883. If these children are all declared abandoned, is it correct, then, our US permission to adopt via the I-600A will be nullified since that is specific for relinquishment? Thanks for any input. We are much dismayed.

I'm living in Guatemala and am aware of orphanages turning away kids due to full capacity and yet more orphanages shutting down due to lack of funds. Where do they propose all those children born in 2008 who's mothers cannot care for them go? Since people (media, etc) are keeping such close tabs on the handful of potential fraud cases (the situation of the one stolen baby was splashed in the news all over the world), why aren't they here reporting on the lifelong ramifications many children will suffer because of red tape. I know of birth mothers who were delivered to PGN the day after the deadline (late due to mudslides) and they were essentially told "tough luck."-- Gee, you're a day late. I guess your child will have to starve in an orphanage now, even though their is a loving family waiting to take care of them.--

Let's be honest here. Changing the players and writing a new rule book will not wipe out corruption here. There will never be an adoption system that stays clean. Even the new PGN is accepting bribes. I have this confirmed from several reliable sources and I know several people who have paid the bribe.

I wish there were some way to make this work. For the sake of the children. But the effort to create an ethical and clean adoption process in a country that on many levels does not operate that way(from the top down) is unfortunately unrealistic.

Our case is one of the 883, and we plan to fight as long as it takes for these children. We are hoping that everyone involved will keep the children's best interest in mind and that our case will be allowed to continue once the abandonment hearings are finalized.

Dear Anonymous:

Thank you for writing your comment. I'm so fearful that the babies being born now are going to be abandoned and left to die on the streets. These beautiful babies won't even have a chance due to the procrastination of the guatemalan government.

Honestly what takes so long to put forth these new rules and be Hague Compliant? Can we just get on with it! They are going to be so overwhelmed once new cases open up again in January 2009 that this will result in more delays!!!

I'm just so heartsick when I open and read about all these delays. Please CNA stop the insanity!!!

A hopeful mom to be

My grandson is one of these 883 cases. Please can someone get some clarification on what they are planning to do with these children. And please if you do not have anything productive to say in this matter please do not comment. It is heartbreaking for these families that have given their hearts to these babies and are having to deal with so much uncertainity. Kevin, can you or Marie please find out something about what the judge is planning on for these babies???

Anonymous- AMEN. This is a wake up call for all of the naive people that think that the current administration in Guatemala is committed to the well being of the guatemalan children in need. We are personally convinced that they don't give a d..... about the children. After all, have you paid attention to the names in charges of the adoptions right now? These are all people always opposed to the adoptions. May be they will change their minds once they will be able to collect a fat adoption fee from foreign couples willing to adopt guatemalan children in need. We hope we are wrong, but it all looks like a money matter. Vince and Gina.

Don't count on DOS for any assistance. We will likely not finish our adoption, and DOS has been of no help; as a matter of fact they have contributed to the heartache. No answers for anyone, no one seems to care. What happened to JCICS and their survey?

To heartbroken grandmother, no offense to you, but there are hundreds of us with broken hearts right now, and we all have a right to voice our concerns on the forum. Your comment is a little offensive, perhaps you didn't intend it to be.

My thoughts are with all those children and families going through this terrible mess. Can I ask someone to clarify the statement from Marie at September 30 - "In order to ensure that those cases get quick attention, CNA felt it was necessary to stop accepting new cases at this time.". When did they start accepting cases again .... Many thanks as I am planning to adopt in 2009 once they open again ... thanks.

Clarification is needed. In my experience an adoption handled via abandonment is not the same as a relinquishment. In our case, our child was originally relinquished then due to problems the adoption turned into an abandonment. And in the abandonment case, the hogar received "custody" of her not us. Kevin, please tap into your resources for clarification.

Rosamaria- Just to clarify, those words are NOT my statement but those of the DOS, see the link provided. In the statement there is no word of them reopening, but of completing Hague requirements by January 2009, please also refer to the CNA link.

Regarding the question about "abandonement", if the birthmother did not appear at the interview, then the child is considered abandoned and the case then is turned over to a judge to determine the outcome of the case.

Please hang tight as we are awaiting clarification of many items of interest. Keeping you all in my prayers,

Marie, Guatadopt.com

I just want to express my deep sympathy for those of you stuck in this situation. We feel very blessed to be home with our 14-mo.-old son now for 3 weeks, and can't imagine how agonizing this is for you all.

LeAnn

I am so sorry for all involved in this. I will be keeping you all in my prayers. God bless you all and especially the beautiful children of Guatemala

To those that are part of the 883 cases pending... our hearts are breaking for you. We pray that you can bring your children home without too much delay.

Blessings to all,

Lo & Scott

Wanted to address Celeste's comment about the 1600A filing. No that is not a specific requirement of a relinquishment case. It is specific to international adoption so your 1600A will not be nullified. However, (and this affects everyone of you) you need to be certain that you DO NOT let your 171h expire including your fingerprints. If you do then your process would be nullified because you could not file another 1600A for Guatemala as USCIS is not processing 1600A any longer nor are they accepting 1800A's which is the new form for Hague countries. The US not open at this time to Guatemala so it is imperative that all 884 cases that are in this situation make sure that you check your paperwork ie 171H and your fingerprints for validation. Do not rely on your agency's to do this or remind you.

I do believe the Guatemalan government will maintain your link. We have been in constant contact with the CNA as we are an abandonment cases. I am so very sorry that you all and especially the children are in this mess. It is not fair and it is not right. We abandonments understand your frustration and your fear. But I believe these kids will come home.

Thanks for any replies to my question about the I-600A and pending abandonment.Our agency has closed so we are trying to make our way with the limited support that adoption supervisors can provide.
For Mary or others in contact with CNA, do you recommend that I try to reach someone there directly? Any names or contact info that you would share (esp if English speaker)?

Thanks again,
Celeste

This is so tragic and sad. What is going to happen to all those beautiful children? I have my son home exactly 7 months today and it he is the most beautiful child I have ever seen. My husband and I feel like the luckiest parents ever. I hope these cases get cleared up real soon so all the waiting parents and children can be as happy as we are. God Bless You All.

If they are Hague compliant by Jan 2009 then presumably, if the government can handle the load, they will be able to begin new adoptions under the new law early next year. I realize that existing cases come first but have begun to lose hope that the country would ever re-open with a new adoption process for international PAP's. Is my hope warranted or pretty pie in the sky?

To chime in on Mary's response to Celeste, as we are a 'unique' abandonment case as well:
CNA will honor your link IF YOU CAN PROVE A PRIOR/EXISTING CONNECTION to your child. What constitutes a 'connection'? We've been told varying things, and are still awaiting clarification. Just a sidenote: We had an entirely authenticated, current dossier rec'd in country (including POA) well before the deadline; our child had his COA, and we have rec'd preapproval from the USE. We've sent care pkgs, rec'd videos and pics up until our agency and atty washed their hands of us 9 mts ago. And even with all of this, we still are not sure the CNA will accept these as 'proof' of a 'connection.' Talk about sickening. We've since had to hire a new atty and had to throw ourselves at the mercy of the CNA, and even with that, we wait for their verdict.
So to Celeste and anyone else in this nightmare...yes, ask whoever you're working with (you mentioned ASG) to submit your case to the CNA and find out your status. The only good thing with them is they do seem to be looking at each case individually.
Prayers going out for everyone...

To echo Melanie's comments-yes you must be able to prove the link with the child through pictures, payments to agency's, facilatators, attorney's, passport stamps to Guatemala, plane ticket reservations, POA's, referral information,anything you have done for the child to show that you supported the child. I do not know how the CNA is going to process these cases but would assume it would be under the new law. If you do not have an attorney working your case in Guatemala I would suggest getting one. I would recommend that your attorney make an appt with the CNA to see how they are going to proceed.

They mention going through the courts to get cert. of abandonment and I do not know how this is going to be handled but would again recommend that you get an attorney preferrable not an adoption attorney but maybe a family law attorney (the adoption ones are not really appreciated right now). However if you have an attorney that you like and has been working your case they probably can help you.

I am really so sorry that this has happened and we feel your pain. But I do believe that these kids will come home but it is going to take some work and I know a lot of you have already been worked to death. Hang on and perservere.

My prayers are with you all - I adopted my daughter from Guatemala 3 years ago and I would like to adopt from there again. Am I holding my breath? I really want to adopt again and I want to adopt from Guatemala. What are your thoughts. It's been a couple of years since I have been on this forum and I relied on it while I was going through the adoption process. It was my sanctuary!

Has anyone on the Guat Adopt team (or others) had direct contact with folks in our govt with some clout? Have they given an explanation as to why they have backed off and are not holding Guatemala to their commitment to grandfather cases under the OLD law? These 800 or so cases will all be processed under the new law, from what I understand. That is in direct contrast to what was agreed to. Why can't we get some answers from anyone? Why isn't the U.S. backing their citizens anymore? Particularly if an initial DNA, homestudy and sign off were all done without problem, why sabatoge these cases? We all realize the need for reform, but the WHOLE POINT of the grandfathering was to let current cases finish up and then start cleaning up the mess that is adoptions in Guatemala. Why are these families and children being punished in this way? U.S. and JCICS Speak up!!!

We have a situation where our agency has not been allowed to see or know where the little girl is that we hope to be our daughter one day. She was taken from her foster mom and placed in an orphanage and there has been no way to get any updates about her. Has anyone else experienced a situation like this where your agency has not been allowed to see your child? The not knowing where or how she is is so hard to take. Please let me know if anyone is having this same experience. Any thoughts? Thanks.

THE CNA HAS NO JURISDICTION OVER GRANDFATHERED ADOPTIONS

The adoption processes registered before the National Council of Adoptions (CAN) according to Article 56 of the Adoption Law, are subjected to the laws effective at the moment when those adoptions were initiated. Since the CNA was created by a law effective AFTER that moment, such law is totally excluded of the grandfathered adoptions. Even if the adoptive parents would want to remove their adoption from the scope of the already chosen laws and place it under the Adoptions Law scope they could not do it, because once the laws that rule it were chosen, there is no legal provision that can reverse that situation.

Decree 54-77 of the Guatemalan Congress, which is the Law that regulates the notarial procedure of voluntary matters, such as adoptions, in its articles 4 and 32 states that adoption files must be submitted to the Procuraduria General de la Nacion (PGN) for its review about its legality and to issue an opinion within three days. The PGN may approve the adoption or may object it, but there is no legal provision that allows the PGN to abuse its power by demanding to interview the birthmothers as a condition to approve the adoptions, and to use the lack of such interview as an excuse to derail adoptions where the birth mothers have expressed their consent before notary who presides the adoption process, ratifying it with their signature and if they are illiterate, with their thumbprint and the signature of a witness, and before a Family Court appointed Social Worker, who interviews the birth mothers and the children. As a requirement of the US embassy, that later was adopted by all embassies and by the PGN, a DNA must be performed to prove the kinship between mother and child, and also an HIV test must be done to the birthmother to obtain authorization to apply for the visa of the child. In other words: the birthmothers have to sign off their children, not once but at least four times, and also they have to give their blood and their saliva before the adoption file is submitted to the PGN and there are no legal grounds to demand that the birth mothers also ratify their consent before the PGN.

The period to the arbitrarily mandated birth mother interviews expired, also arbitrarily, on August 31st. Those files without such interviews, are being rejected by the PGN, ordering that the Notary either presents the case to the Courts of the Childhood and Adolescence, or continues the process according to the Adoptions Law. As it has been stated, the Adoptions Law cannot be applied to processes already registered before the CNA.

The Courts of Childhood and Adolescence have jurisdiction over those children whose rights are threatened or are being violated. A child who is being adopted is NOT in either situation, and therefore, the PGN opinion has no legal grounds and the Judges of the Childhood and Adolescence have no jurisdiction over those cases.

It is hard to understand why is that the Guatemalan authorities, instead of helping the children whose adoptions are in its final stage, are set in finding ways to sabotage them. The PGN has always abused its power, but what they are doing now is beyond anything done before. We have seen how the list of requirements that the PGN demands, is changed on a daily basis and that there are no guidelines, because each reviewer has an opinion that also changes from file to file. But now, the PGN not only rejects the adoptions, but in those cases where the birth mother did not obey the illegal order to ratify her consent at the PGN, it has sent its people to snatch the child from their foster mothers. However, there are files that have been approved without the birthmother interview, and there is one file that also was approved, that not only lacks such interview, but has the deposition of the director of the hogar where the children are fostered, stating that they are no longer wanted by the adoptive parents, and therefore, the adoption should not proceed, signed by her and by the PGN and the CNA witnesses, and the PGN notary. This leads us to think that the adoptions of the unwanted children are approved, while the wanted and loved are not.

The CNA has as a self appointed President, Elizabeth Hernandez de Larios, a lawyer whose husband is Carlos Larios, the Chief of Staff of President Colom. Since she has nothing to justify the fifty thousand quetzales monthly salary that she awarded herself, and no intention of working for it, she has issued a communication stating that the CAN will not authorize any adoptions at this time, because the CNA is busy working on establishing guidelines to use in accrediting adoption agencies for intercountry adoptions and to focus on completing transition cases.

The communication of the CNA indicates that there were 883 cases that were not submitted by the August 31, 2008 deadline for the verification process. Those cases will be turned over to the Guatemalan courts as abandonment cases. In order to ensure that those cases get quick attention, CNA felt it was necessary to stop accepting new cases at this time.

The CNA is wrong. The children being adopted should not be turned over to the courts as abandoned cases, because those children have adoptive parents and in most cases, the birthmother signed a power of attorney to allow someone to sign the final deed of adoption on her behalf. And even if she did not leave a power of attorney, she may still sign the deed of adoption. The lack of interview does not disqualify the adoption and does not turn a loved and cared child into a case that merits the intervention of the Childhood courts.
As it has been said, the PGN is acting arbitrarily and so is the CNA. Grandfathered cases should be approved by the PGN without further delay and the CNA people should be doing something else to justify their salaries. The children being adopted are a lame excuse to halt adoptions and the guidelines are long overdue, but in no way justify their inactivity. For the sake of all the children who are not being adopted, we hope that someone has a change of heart and understands that the children cannot wait. Those who need a family need it now, not in January, not later.

The Guatemalan courts have been very reluctant to understand that the PGN is illegally abusing its power. The amparos filed have been denied, partly because the judges are afraid to take the side of those who do adoptions and risk a bad press attack, duly paid and orchestrated by UNICEF, and partly because they are jealous of the fees that the adoption lawyers make, according to the always biased press. However, it is necessary to keep using the legal resources to prevent that those adoptions that meet all the legal requirements, are derailed because they do not meet an illegal one. Since the amparo grants protection only to the person who demands it, every one whose birthmother did not appeared for the so called verification at the PGN should file an amparo to demand the approval of the adoption based on the illegal requirement by the PGN of the birth mother interview. The child you are adopting is not an abandoned child and should not be regarded as such. That child has a family who is waiting to shower him/her with love, kisses and comfort. Even if the adoption is not finalized, the person who is adopting a child has rights and now is the moment to exercise them, fighting for that child whose fate is very somber unless someone steps in to rescue him from the good intentions of the CNA and the PGN, entities that are following to the letter the anti adoption policies of UNICEF.

Thanks you for such a clear and concise comment on the PGN and CNA. Can the decision maker's please close their eyes for an hour and take a walk in the children's "shoes". Get on with giving these children a good life and let it start NOW. Don't wait until it is to late. If you have the child's interest at heart show it....