Marie,

Thanks for your research and for posting this. My heart goes out to any one who is affected by these horrible acts.

Best, Cheryl

What a tragedy that these children lost their parents. Thank God they did not have to languish in institutions for the rest of their lives, that would have been another tragedy. Thank God the people running the orphanage did not wait for the government (the people that murdered their parents) to run an investigation looking for extended family members to raise them. That process may have taken the rest of their lives.

I am wondering why Guatadopt is publishing this piece. It is written by the infamous Juan Carlos LLorca. If you type "Juan Carlos Llorca" in the Guatadopt search bar you will see an article by Kevin (of Guatadopt) attacking Llorca's journalistic credibility. Since Llorca is known to sensationalize adoption stories I don't think his work is very informative.

Jennifer- Are you serious? If so, I am quite offended by your remarks. I am even further shocked that you would call what truly happened in Guatemala history as being sensationalized.

We post the truth and the truth is that these horrid event DID happened! To negate or downplay them is to be as guilty as those that committed the murders. Even worse is to glorify a military adoption process or glorify anyone who adopted a child by such tragic means as a savior.

Not admitting and facing the truth is lying. If you have adopted a child from Guatemala you owe them the truth of what happened in their mother country. The TRUTH and this is the TRUTH.

Downplaying or calling what happened in Guate sensationalizing or calling into doubt why we posted it is like saying that the Holocaust never existed.

It is the TRUTH, plain and simple.

Marie, Guatadopt.com

Wow Jenn I think you missed the point of why guatadopt posted this.
Cathie

Jenn, these children were SOLD by the military government. They changed their identities and TRAFFICKED with them. What a tragedy that their parents were massacred by the army and that the world stood by as these crimes were committed.

This story was not only covered by Llorca. It was front page yesterday.

Do you really mean what you wrote? Do you know who were the people running these orphanages? these were the same military gov. people who had killed their parents!!

I suggest you do some reading concerning that period in history...hoping that information will make you rethink what you wrote. It offends every victim and every surviving family member of these children. I cannot believe that someone may think that a a child is better off in a foreign country than reunited with the few surviving family members, even if they are poor and Guatemalan...

POR FAVOR!!

jen

i am SPEECHLESS at your post - and angry does not even begin to say how i am feeling

i will try hard not to indulge my urge for a personal comment - suffice to say that my heart aches deeply for all of the children and families ripped apart by this inhumanity - i hope that my life or your life is never touched in this way ...

Let me rephrase. I think it is horrible that these children were treated the way the story describes. It is atrocious. However, I am happy that they did not have to grow up in an institution. That would have been another crime. That is my opinion.

I am not saying that Guatemala's history has been sensationalized. I was only trying to say that the particular author of this story has sensationalized ADOPTION stories.

Juan Carlos Llorca a sensationalist? Why? Because he doesn't fluff your fantasy that all adoptions were legit from Guatemala?

Or, is he "infamous" because he tells an unpopular truth (unpopular to a-parents only) about kidnapping and fraud by giving a voice to people like Ana Escobar? Who, in case I need to remind you, had her child stolen at gunpoint for the lucrative adoption biz. Or, perhaps he "sensationalized" her story, too?

He works for the Associated Press, not The National Enquirer. Enough said.

To dismiss this only shows your own biases and ignorance, but more importantly, it is insulting to those that dealt with the tragedies and GENOCIDE in Guatemala.

And people wonder why history repeats? Look no further than the blind denial present here.

I for one will be the first to admit that there are a lot of things about Guatemalan history that I do not know yet. I purposely decided to not read up on this during my adoption process because I knew it would be a constant painful reminder that my daugther wasn't with me. I used only guatadopt.com as my source of information for several reasons. One, it is unsensored. Two, it comes in a manageable form instead of getting 100s of emails everyday. I haven't had time to educate myself since she has come home due to various circumstances -- my father died, my mother was declared in competent, my daughter ran a temperature of 106 and had night mares for weeks, I ended up getting shingles from being so exhausted from caring for her, three sinus infections, bronchitis that almost turned into pneumonia, and the list goes on ....

Jenn, like me, doesn't know a lot of things and there may be good reasons for that. I think that some of the comments here are taking her words out of context. One of the things that she said is if you type "Juan CArlos Llorca" in guatadopt search bar you will see an article by Kevin (of guatadopt) attacking Llorca's journalistic credibility. From everything I'm seeing, it seems that Jenn has misunderstood some things, but if you read her email in context, her heart in many respects seems to be in the right place. She said that it is horrible that these people were killed and that these kids were taking from their families. Why not educate her instead of vilifying her? I'm more than happy to be educated myself.

We tend to jump to conclusions way to quickly on the basis of a few sentences that people write.

Regards, Cheryl Eichstaedt

HA! The Associated Press is not what it used to be back in the late 60's when only facts and objectivity were reported. There is no gold standard in journalism anymore. Please!
Without any long comment here, I understand what you meant, Jen.
MK

Juan Jose Llorca like most Guatemalan journalists is biased. He is anti-adoption and nothing will change that. However, he is the least of anyone's problems in Guatemala. Just a big fish in a very small pond.

I do believe that the Colom government is using the fact that children were adopted during the civil war for his own benefit. I would not even think this man nor his wife gives a damn about what happened to those kids.

Please remember that the civil war was 30 years and it was brought to and end 10 years ago. I lived in Guatemala during the civil war and find Guatemala to be a much more frightening country now than during the war. That being said, I was not one of the targeted groups during the war and not now either but it is still a scary place and much worse.

What I don't get about the adoptions 30+ years ago was that adoption was not BIG money back then. It cost little to adopt and not everyone was coming home with babies. I guess had I been an adoptive parent during that time and knew that I was rescuing a baby from a war torn country I would assume the child was an orphan and that what I was doing was good. Adoptions didn't become big business until way, way later.

As despicable as the war was and the crimes committed I am surprised that there were even any children left. I would have thought the kids would have suffered the same fate as their parents and been killed. For that I am grateful and that they were able to have a second chance at life. We all know their parents were not killed to kidnap the kids to later put up for adoption. It wasn't a war about adoption. It was about wiping out an entire population of people.

Do I believe that children adopted during this time have the right to be reunited? Absolutely, if the adoptee choses. But lets not make this horrible war about adoption because it wasn't

I really appreciate Jenn's honesty in how she views an AP Press story about the war orphans and the fact that she is comfortable attacking a person (a news reporter) rather than digging into history and facing facts. It makes a point and case so very nicely. Anyone who has followed Guatadopt knows that the most common tactic of those in denial about adoption fraud is to turn to personal attacks rather than analysis of evidence. The truth does prevail EVEN WHEN there is such a concerted effort to marginalize those who dare speak out against injustice. It is a classic case of the "speak truth to power" scenario and thanks to Jenn for reminding us all about the tactics of those who refuse to take a deep breath, grit their teeth, and acknowledge that there are some things VERY, VERY, VERY wrong about the past of Guatemalan adoptions. And yes, we have NO IDEA how many individual adoptions were fraudulent, BUT we know that there was a significant percentage that had irregularities and some of those cases had problems that are extremely disturbing. And, the press stories may make Jenn and others attack people on a personal level as a diversion from the truth, but the truth is the truth. Indeed, truth and reconciliation is an uncomfortable process for all...

Nancy, please enlighten us on how the current president and his wife "are using the orphans of the war to their own benefit..." How can you state that they do not care what happened to these children?

I am just curious about your inside knowledge...

I also lived in Guatemala during the war. I was born during the war and I can see that your experience and mine are very different. I had several relatives killed during that time. I suppose if you had lost relatives too, you would see things differently. Also, as an American, you had far more guarantees that you would not be touched by the armed forces. No you were not a target group.

You may have lived in Guatemala, but the fact that you did not know about these war orphans shows how one can live in a country, during a war, and manage to miss a lot of information about what happened. The information on war orphans has been out there since REMHI and Memoria del Silencio were published a few years back. I am surprised that you are not familiar with these texts, with the publicity and media attention they got, particularly after the assassination of Bishop Gerardi...

Seeing that you lack this basic information, I wonder who your sources for the accusations against the president and his wife come from...are you as misinformed as you were in the 1990s?

A very offended Guatemalan

Nancy, I am confused. I visited your website and read that you first visited Guatemala in 1992...By 1992 the war was certainly winding down. It was nothing compared to what we lived between 1978 and 1984. Claiming that you had first hand experience when stating your opinions is misleading to the readers.

Nancy,
I am surprised that you are not aware of the history of the very youngest children being spared during the war years. It was well documented during the war years that the very youngest would sometimes be spared and then informally adopted by military families and others from the majority ladino group--this is a recognized form of genocide/re-socialization of children. It is outlined in the UN Convention that focuses on Genocide,dating back to 1948. Since you have so much personal history in Guatemala and involvement in adoptions there, I would suggest that you read the book GUATEMALA, NEVER AGAIN! In that account, this issue of the very youngest surviving the atorcities and then being informally adopted by Guatemalans was documented in this text. Unfortunately, they were unable to document foreign-placements, but now the evidence appears to be forthcoming. This book is a very distilled version of the truth and reconciliation documents (at least a dozen volumes) and was published as a result of the Catholic Church's documentation work there. The publishing house is Orbis Books. The sad truth is that this history of the war years is connected to the bigger picture of anti-adoption sentiments--the people of Guatemala know how they've been abused and oppressed and the details continue to emerge. It is clear to me that this past in Guatemala (as well as El Salvador and other Latin American nations that have experienced war/trauma/family separation) clearly have threads into the current state of affairs in the nation (defacto intercountry adoption moratorium) as well as the greater Latin American region.

It is good to have this information come out regarding how these children were taken out of their families and put up for adoption What do we have to fear? By having the truth come out we enable the system to make serious improvements so future children without any families can find homes that will provide the love they need. No child should be treated like a commodity!

Marie posted:
"We post the truth and the truth is that these horrid event DID happened! To negate or downplay them is to be as guilty as those that committed the murders. Even worse is to glorify a military adoption process or glorify anyone who adopted a child by such tragic means as a savior."

Goodness Marie. When you say somebody who disagrees with you is as bad as a murderer, then you are taking things too far.
FWIW, the US Embassy has long disallowed adoption from war-torn countries, because the status of children from war regions is often impossible to verify. Its unlikely that anyone on this forum was involved in this particular horror.
Folks, get a grip and stop piling on. I know I'm tired of hearing about what a guilty horrible person I am for adopting a Guatemalan child. I appreciate the information I get from this site, but I'm tired of the commentary from an obviously anti-adoption group of folks here.

Mariale,

I clearly stated in my post that I was not one of the targeted groups during the war nor do I tend to be now. I am sorry you lost family members. However, because your experience is different from mine doesn't make yours the only answer. You see, in the United States, we do have freedom of speech, unlike Guatemala which does not tolerate freedom of speech nor support different opinions.

I have seen the Guatemalan government use children as pawns in politics. I deal almost strictly with the legal system and children's rights and rarely do I see any of these groups truly advocating for children. So it surprises me that President Colom fights for the rights of grown children who are safe. I am not saying these kids don't deserve to know where they came from and their histories but there are lots of young children in Guatemala that are suffering. Resources, time and energy should be put toward those kids too.

I gather from your post that you no longer live in Guatemala. I have never claimed to be an expert on Guatemala, but will claim to be an expert on my life here and what I see. I've lived in Guatemala over 15 years and spent the five years before living part time here. I have two Guatemalan daughters.

You know, Mariale, being nasty and "offended" really does nobody any good. Do you deserve a gold medal because you were born in Guatemala and during the war? Because you lost families members? We all have our life experiences. I chose to live in Guatemala and to work with children. I never had any idea where that road would take me. No, I haven't spent hours reading over history books on Guatemala because I live the history on a daily basis. I see and know more that I ever wanted to.

We can agree to disagree Mariale but the truth is you don't get to "one up me" because you were born Guatemalan and I was born in the United States.

Hopefully we all do what we can to make the world a better place and that generally starts out by being respectful to others and leaving your ego out of it.

Nancy, first of all, I live and work in Guatemala. Why should I not feel offended? Particularly since you made such statements claiming that you lived through the war when you DID NOT. I am not offended at you because I lost family members, please do not manipulate my words. You are entitled to express your opinion, just like I am. I am offended because you claimed experience you did not have and based your judgment on that. I know Americans who did live (and some died) during the war in Guatemala, and I assure you that their take on the issues is much different. If you feel you've had enough experience here in Guate, why say you lived through a period when you did not? You were not a target because you weren't even here!

I am sorry if you find my tone disrespectful, I do not intend to sound so. I do like and respect the truth and do feel offended when people are not truthful. I am afraid that it is your ego that was hurt :) I am not getting "up on you" because you are American, I just called you on your "I lived through the war" claim.

Anonymous- I agree with you. And at the same time I would like to know from the people that are against the adoptions from Guatemala what they are doing to help the Guatemalan children in need.Vince.

Dear Anonymous- Please understand that this is not about someone disagreeing but about someone saying that this true history of Guatemala is sensationalized (their words not mine).

Thank you for bringing to my attention that not all people know the history of Guatemala. Though I find that hard to comprehend that someone would not know the history of their child's birthcountry or how ICA began in Guatemala.

With that said, here is a quick history lesson and some recommended reading that was posted on our forum (as I know that some of you do not log onto our forum):

Please understand that these were not "war orphans", but children whose families were killed by the military, taken by the same military that killed their family, kidnapped, had their identities changed and sold for adoption, and put in orphanages run by the military. This occurred during the years 1976-1986. Many are adults now who are questioning their identities and searching, many remember what happened and their extended families.

From our forum:

"Please remember that the government at the time was a de facto military regime. Records were out of bounds to civilians (we could not even buy a map of Guatemala without the army's authorization!!). The army burned and "disappeared" most records of what took place in every aspect of the government. In fact, there have been several headlines lately concerning the request of the present government to the armed forces to release whatever remains in terms of archives and records. Very little has been rendered. The information of where these children were sent to may still exist, and believe me, civil associations and gov. entities have been working for a while putting together the pieces of this gigantic puzzle.

Police records, on the other hand, were found. By some sort of miracle people at police headquarters forgot they HAD detailed records! As I write, families are having access, for the first time in history, to their loved ones records. This will bring some peace to some families but not to the majority because it was the army the main perpetrator of abuses, including the trafficking of children who survived massacres. Often children were killed, too, btw, under the argument that they were "budding communists" (toddlers, included).

Probably the best known case outside of Guatemala is Dominga's story. She was one of those orphaned children and was later adopted by an American couple.

http://www.laprensa-sandiego.org/archieve/july03-03/dominga.htm

I hope I have answered your question: the current government, the Human Rights Ombudsman, Sobrevivientes and a myriad of associations are and have been doing all they can to find answers, not only to these orphans but to every family who lost one of more of its members to the war. Many of these documents online if you wish to understand more:

http://www.fundacionpdh.org/lesahumanidad/informes/guatemala/informeREMHI-Tomo1.htm

http://www.amnesty.uzh.ch/Guatemala/espanol/index.html (pictures with captions in English)

http://www.gam.org.gt/public/publi/pdf/MASACRESenGUATEMALA.pdf "

More historical information from our forum:

"The present government is having a hard time finding any information on the whereabouts of these children and their adoptive families because the then gov. was a military regime. All the archives and files were secret and most of them were destroyed a while ago. The military tried to erase any evidence of their involvement in massacres and what happened to surviving children. The gov. has repeatedly requested the files from the central and regional bases in the hopes of giving answers to the families of the disappeared (people kidnapped, tortured and buried in mass graves) and to also find out what happened to these children and other survivors. Most of us believe that these files were destroyed. Interestingly, the army and the police did keep detailed track of all their actions, so we know the files existed at some point, but since all of this happened over 20 years ago, tracking the information is not easy.

Some information has been put together when these children, now adults, have tried to reunite or find out what happened to their families, like in the case of Dominga. Other cases have been cleared when adoptive parents contacted authorities and worked together with gov and/or NGOs to match their children to information of missing children. While some adoptions did happen legitimately, I think that any parent who adopted from Guatemala in the late 70s and through the 80s would have grounds to question the real identity of their children. Conversely, any child, now adult, adopted from Guatemala during that period, has grounds to question whether the identity provided in their adoption papers is legit or not, particularly if they came from state-run homes or orphanages managed by people associated with the then government."

"Thank you for bringing to my attention that not all people know the history of Guatemala. Though I find that hard to comprehend that someone would not know the history of their child's birthcountry or how ICA began in Guatemala."

wow. i don't know much about the history of the US either...but that doesn't make me less American. I didn't even know where Guatemala was when I signed the contract to adopt my son. Now as he gets older, we learn more about his country together. I don't think that makes me less of a parent...because quite frankly, any question he has about the US...i'd have to look up also.i have great respect for where he was born. we look forward to travelling back and learning more as time goes on. in the meantime. i don't know much.....and i'm not sure why that's so hard to comprehend. i'm sure i'm not the only one.

JMHO, but I think that when we take a child from another country and another culture, we have a responsibility to learn something about that country and its history and culture. Our children will learn US history in school. But they will not learn much, if anything, about Guatemala. I don't think we have to become experts on Guatemala, but there are books of about 100 pages that can give us APs a basic background. In Focus Guatemala is one such basic book. Or, even just coming to this site and reading can help.