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August 14, 2009

Primavera Raided

Yesterday, representatives from the MP, PGN, and CNA raided Primavera. Details are sketchy. But 17 children were removed from the hogar according to the Guatemala news. Sadly, some of the children residing there were waiting for PINK. In other words, the adoptive families are LEGALLY their parents and therefore, the children were illegally moved.
http://www.prensalibre.com/pl/2009/agosto/13/335019.htm

Very sad news indeed.

Posted by Kelly at August 14, 2009 09:07 AM
Comments

Well, my children were not waiting for Pink, but it was still absouletly ILLEGAL for them to be moved! They were in the custody of hogar Primavera under a judge's order. We were in minor's court just last Friday, and there was absolutely NO PROBLEM with them being at Primavera. Up until yesterday, the judge knew where my children were, their biological family knew where they were, and I knew where they were. And we all knew that they were SAFE. Now none of us know where they are. This is heartbreaking and ridiculous!!!!

Posted by: Krystal at August 14, 2009 09:52 AM

It was PGN not CNA that went to take the children from Hogar Primavera.

Posted by: Guat at August 14, 2009 10:09 AM

A sad counterpoint to the sad story about the raid on Primavera is a story in today's Prensa Libre about a baby abandoned less than two hours after being born and recuperating from pneumonia in the hospital. The final line of the story stated that the case is before a judge in the Minors Court and the child surely will be transfered to a children's home...

http://www.prensalibre.com/pl/2009/agosto/14/334906.html

Posted by: Lee at August 14, 2009 10:30 AM

I cant see the link..darn...

Does anyone know where the childen are?

Posted by: leslie at August 14, 2009 10:57 AM

I am praying for all families who children were residing at Primavera. Our daughter lived there for 2 years. May some information be forthcoming soon. Peace to all.

Posted by: lisa at August 14, 2009 10:58 AM

I'm is so sick right now at hearing this news. Our daughter lived at Primavera for over a year and received wonderful care. We just brought her home a few months ago. My heart breaks for the children that I have grown to love and for the parents in this horrible situation.

Posted by: Terri at August 14, 2009 11:40 AM

We are the PAP of a 2 year old boy named Wilson, if you hear anything please email me!


Posted by: jennifer Smith at August 14, 2009 11:46 AM

HOW can this happen?!? ALL of these children were at Primavera legally; ALL with judges' court orders!

My husband and I have been to Guatemala 7 times over the past 2.5 years while trying to finalize our adoptions, have visited several hogars, and I can assure you that the children at Primavera were receiving EXCELLENT care!

We are SICK with worry about how freightened and confused our son and the other children must be!!

Kevin, please post if you learn about the others - our son was not on your list but was among the 17 taken.

Thank you!!
Donna

Posted by: Donna at August 14, 2009 11:51 AM

My prayers are with the children and the families.

Posted by: Julie at August 14, 2009 12:45 PM

My heart goes out to all of the Primavera parents involved in this. It must be heartwrenching. It seems that there are many investigations going on now with adoptions that are still pending that are causing yet more delays for these poor children and their families. Do they need to remove 17 children if they went looking for one? I just don't understand how this helps the children that were there legally (and that may be ALL of the 17 for all we know.)

What I don't understand though is how a 9 or 11 month old could have PAPs as they would have been born after the adoptions were halted under the old system. This would mean they weren't eligible under the old system, and there isn't a functional new system yet, is there? Maybe I am just not aware of it yet.

Posted by: Dee at August 14, 2009 01:06 PM

This is so sad and heartbreaking. Will this madness ever end in Guatemala. I don't understand why the officials in Guatemala feel that it is necessary to remove the children from the home. Why can't they investigate the home while the children remain until it is deemed if appropriate to remove the child? These raids only hurt the children and are not in the best interest of the child.

Primavera is the Hogar run by Susana Luarca correct? I am sure I will take heat for this, but feel that in some way it was directed at her to get even.

To the family's waiting on these children we cry with you.
Mary

Posted by: Mary at August 14, 2009 01:28 PM

This is what I found from Prensalibre and translated on the internet:

19:13 | 13/08/2009
La Procuraduría General de la Nación (PGN) rescató anoche a 17 niños, de entre 6 meses y 9 años, quienes se encontraban en el Hogar Primavera.
José Miguel Morales, abogado de la PGN, informó que llegaron a ese lugar para rescatar a un menor que estaba internado en forma ilegal, pero se sorprendieron cuando encontraron más niños.
Los menores fueron rescatados por la PGN, debido a que la representante legal de ese hogar, Enriqueta Noriega, está en prisión por una adopción anómala.
Al cierre de esta edición, el juez de turno de Paz Penal aún no había determinado a qué centros enviaría a los niños.
19:13 | 13/08/2009
The General Office of the judge advocate general of the Nation (PGN) last night rescued 17 children, of between 6 months and 9 years, that were in the Home Spring.
Jose Miguel Morales, lawyer of the PGN, informed that they arrived at that place to rescue a minor who was committed in illegal form, but they were surprised when they found more children.
The minors were rescued by the PGN, because the legal representative of that home, Enriqueta Noriega, is in prison by an anomalous adoption.
To the closing of this edition, the judge of turn of Penal Peace not yet had determined to what centers would send to the children.

Posted by: katie at August 14, 2009 02:07 PM

Krystal,
we are heartsick right now for you and the other families. we are praying for you and other right now.

our son, was aat Primavera for nineteen months and there were talks of raids, then but no children were ever taken.

Susanna is always champion the chiildren, i am sure she is in action right now for their safe return.

Posted by: Shawn C at August 14, 2009 06:53 PM

The PGN and the MP continue to raid children's home because they can and nobody has stopped them from subjecting these children to the abuses by either the MP or PGN. The PGN is suppose to be advocates for the children but instead they drag the children through their political power plays. Can you imagine what it must have been like for those kids to be taken from the only home they know and by strangers? I have no doubt that the cameras were rolling as the 17 children were crying. Needless to say I doubt that those children's tears were attributed to the fear they felt at being dragged from their home by people they did not know.

The reality is that nobody cares. The PGN does not care about these kids, for them it is a big show. The MP only wants to figure out a way to bring in a little extra income.

I have watched this play out first hand in our children's home. I have waited and waited for someone with some power to stop the madness. I have waited fro someone to care about the well being of the kids but it never happens. It is a group insanity that nobody will stop. All I can say is that my experience with the PGN and MP is that there is a level of evilness and brutality that I have never known. Going after an adult is one thing but going after children is a different story.

The judges won't make any type of decision that might make them suspect and attention drawn to them. If a judge sides with the children's home then they are accused of taking bribes from that home, not that they are doing their job and looking out for the kids.

Somebody has to stop this madness. These kids are being used and abused for the PGN's and MP's political gain. However, I suspect the orders are coming from a higher place.

Any children's home that has any integrity should refuse to take children from homes that are raided. Taking kids from these raids just allows the madness to continue. If there is no place to send the children then the PGN, MP and whomever else is involved needs to solve the problem without disrupting the children's lives.

Shame on any children's home that received children from this raid. If you think you are safe from these people you had better think again. None of the kids are safe nor are the children's homes. And by brown nosing the PGN and MP you are selling all these kids down the river.

Posted by: Nancy Bailey at August 14, 2009 09:01 PM

The kidnapping of the Children at the Primavera orpahange

Yesterday , the hogar of Primavera was raided again. Oscar Rivas and Rafael Curruchiche of the the District Attorney Office (Ministerio Publico), Jose Miguel Morales Lopez of the PGN and Jaime Tecú of the National Council of
Adoptions came to the hogar, with a transfer order of Cesar, a two year old boy whose adoption started as a relinquishment, turned into an abandonment and it is already at the PGN for final approval. When the lawyers hired by Primavera opposed the transfer, based on the Abandonment Decree of Cesar that states that Primavera could continue the adoption initiated in 2007, if the CNA did not find a suitable family for Cesar within ten days. When the CNA did not place Cesar with a Guatemalan family, Primavera proceeded with the adoption already
in process, it was approved by the Social Worker appointed by the Family Court and the file is now at the PGN pending approval, but the CNA refused to obey the court order and decided to take Cesar away,just to show who is in command.

The occupation of the hogar took place with the overwhelming help of policemen armed with assault rifles and the agent Oscar Rivas , who was extremely rude, did not let in Susana Luarca, the lawyer of the hogar, arguing that there were
already three lawyers inside. Around noon, they decided to take all the children with them, with the lame argument that "the children were
`abandoned' because the director of the hogar is in jail". That has no legal grounds, because the director Enriqueta Noriega is in protective custody, not in jail, and furthermore, the seventeen children were under the care of three nannies, a cleaning woman and a laundress/cook who take very well care of them, so there was no reason to take the children to another place.

First they went to the Court of Appeals of the Childhood and Adolescence, to denounce that the children were at risk, in order to get a court order to move them. The time was running late, the court closed without giving them the order. That did not stop them. They went back to the hogar, ordered the nannies to prepare the children to go, and when they refused they opened the drawers and filled garbage bags with clothes and shoes, which is a felony, and under the rain, packed the seventeen children, aged from six months to six years into a minivan and took the children to the court that remains open all night,
and left them there for over six hours, as the TV news reported, showing the children being treated as criminals, sitting on the floor of a court, waiting for a place to be sent. Around midnight, they found where to place them, although in different orphanages.

Primavera never has accepted children kidnapped from other hogars, in order to discourage the PGN from doing those illegal transfers of children. That is one of the reasons why it is being targeted. We hope that the places where the
children are, have their best interest at heart and do not use them as pawns to further their own agendas. The best way to show that they want the best for these precious children would be to actively collaborate in sending them back to Primavera, where they belong, because there are court order for each of them to stay at the hogar Primavera until the finalization of their adoptions.

Susana Luarca, attorney at Law

Posted by: Susana Luarca at August 14, 2009 10:51 PM

Um, they were surprised when they found more children? Is that an accurate translation? Thats like raiding a school you knew was open and left open and then claim you're surprised to find students there?

Posted by: lisa at August 15, 2009 09:43 AM

This is horrifying and heartbreaking for these children and the families...it is so wrong on so many levels. Prayers for all ! I don't care what official you are in Guatemala...do you not see what you are doing to these poor kids ? Have a heart !

Posted by: Lynn at August 15, 2009 10:08 AM

In order to make some sense of the raid on Primavera and all the other children's homes you must first remember that the MP nor the PGN care about the well-being of the kids. They pay lip service to caring but actions speak louder than words. It is almost impossible for most people to believe that the same people who should be advocating for these children are the same ones that are destroying their lives.

The PGN made this comment about me: "I don't understand why Nancy Bailey cares so much about these kids. So many homes have closed and she keeps holding on so tight to the 37 children she has. She must be getting money for those kids." As you can see these people cannot see that I have a responsibility and a commitment to the children in my care. I love these kids and will fight for their rights. This is not something the PGN or the MP will ever get. The truth is it would be easier for me if all the kids were gone so we could move forward with our school. But until each one of our kids is home we won't stop. Anyone who is confrontational with the PGN and MP is a target, as Susanna knows all to well.

Sadly, the United States government sees no reason to intervene and help this situation. And we all know that the US government is very powerful and, if they chose, could make a difference. Please look at the Guatemala900 website and see what you can do to help get these kids out of this nightmare and home with their families. So much valuable time is being lost and for no good reason. www.guatemala900.com.

Posted by: Nancy Bailey at August 15, 2009 03:35 PM

Nancy,

I think is wrong is to demonize those hogares that received these kids. The authorities are going to do what they are going to do. The children need safe surroundings. Even if only for a short while and in the midst of numerous wrong disruptions.

I understand your point but IMHO it only makes the kids pawns in these wrong political battles one more time.

Kevin
Guatadopt.com

Posted by: Kevin at August 15, 2009 04:42 PM

Kevin, I disagree. As long as there is a place to dump the children, the PGN are using as political pawns, they will continue to play this game. If there is no place to send the kids then the chances are good they will think twice before they take them from their homes and dump them elsewhere. Thus, no big drama in the news! I think it is time that the children's homes stand up to the PGN and tell them we will not tolerate the abuse of these children any longer. If there are legal issues, then those issues can be dealt with, without uprooting the children. I would think that sticking together as a group, supporting one another and not buying into the PGN's political drama might be a way, to at least, stop the children from being traumatized by being ripped from their homes and their adoptive families frantically searching for them. I am not demonizing the homes that took the children but I do believe we need to gather the power we have as a group of children's home and fight back for the rights of the kids.

Just my opinion from the trenches of this insanity. Nancy

Posted by: Nancy Bailey at August 15, 2009 05:48 PM

Kevin, I want to add just a comment or two more in response to your post. As you know children's homes in Guatemala are not supported in any way by the government. We do not receive funding, food, clothes, nothing. What we do receive is on-going harassment from the PGN and MP. We are providing a free service to a government that does not provide care for these children. This amounts to hundreds of thousands of dollars every month. There are far fewer children's homes now that there are no longer any adoptions. This has put a huge strain on all of the homes who struggle to stay open.

Your comment about the children being removed and being put in a safe environment is understandable. But first of all, some children are transferred to homes with substandard care and NOTHING is a short while in the Guatemalan legal system. Once kids are removed it sets up an entirely new legal process. I would agree that if a child or children were taken for a few days and then returned to the home it would be less damaging but that is rarely the case. Susanna is now looking at a new legal battle which translates into more legal fees. We have lived this nightmare at Semillas de Amor and continue to do so. The amount of money spent on legal fees is a tragedy because we could have used the funds for the kids.

Posted by: Nancy Bailey at August 15, 2009 06:08 PM

Kevin,

Nancy and I think alike regarding the hogars that take in children removed from other hogars. I don’t remember the name of the place where the First Court of Childhood and Adolescence sent some of the children of Casa Quivira, and when the judge reviewed their cases and realized that the adoptions were according to the law, authorized the children to be given back to Casa Quivira, but the hogar refused to give the children back and the judge had to resort to the Police to get them. The owners of the hogar filed charges against the judge and appealed her decision. The Court of Appeals upheld the judge’s ruling and the charges were dismissed. I hope that the children of Primavera were not sent to that place.

Each of the children at Primavera has a court order to be there. The PGN, the DA and the CAN broke the law, disregarded judge orders and committed several felonies in the process. We will file charges against each one of the agents who participated in the atrocity and those hogars who have the children, who knowingly and willingly are collaborating with them, unless they actively work to return the children to Primavera, will face charges as well. The very same DA agents to put the director of Primavera in jail and tried to get a warrant for my arrest last week, are who participated in the kidnapping of the 17 children. And they had the nerve of accusing us of “conspiracy”!
Nancy is right, we should join forces and stop the abuse of power of those agents who do not hesitate to take children under the rain and leave them in a basement for hours just to prove their power. .

Enough is enough.

Susana Luarca

Posted by: Susana Luarca at August 16, 2009 01:09 AM

Is there an advocate in Guatemala or the U.S., other than the adoptive parents, for the adoptive children who are stuck in this turmoil of confusion and uncertainty? Speaking as a parent of a child who's adoption is not approved, I'm sick of beating my head against the wall. This may be naive to ask, but who is legally responsible for caring for these children? Who makes sure they are to receive food, clothing, immunizations, and health care when they are ill? The government? Which government? I don't mean to offend anyone, I am honestly asking.

Posted by: ARS at August 16, 2009 10:15 AM

ARS; I think you know the answer. Who are you paying to take care of your child in process? With whom did you contract to adopt that child? They are ethically and usually legally responsible here. Guatemala's previous adoption process was based on a weak government and a judiciary who protected business interests over human rights for decades.

Do you really want the truth? Kevin can probably give you a good idea of it.

Posted by: Steve at August 16, 2009 10:45 PM

I wrote what could be considered a comment in this thread on the later, Aug 15th posting. It was started as a response to this thread, but the posting of Susana's statement in the Aug 15th made me think to put it there. I won't rewrite it here, but refer it to any who believe the comment posted by Susana at 1:09 on August 16.

I also wrote quickly re ARS's questions. I realized afterward, that yours is a philosophical question also. You are right, ARS, in being confused. I think everyone is. Right now a huge debate is raging in the states regarding who is responsible for the [health]care of 46 million Americans much like these children.

That, IMNSHO, is what traditionally divides Liberals from Conservatives. Liberals like Kevin believe in some level of governmental support of those in a society that cannot help themselves. Many others on this site might think that is intrusive, and will lead to all sorts of taxes and loss of personal freedoms for those with resources.

But in these days, the line blurs.

Case in point: Nancy seems to feel the Government is responsible to do something regarding the children at risk, as she said she is providing a service to and presumably for them. But she has not liked what they have done when they have done it. Maybe she feels the government should only clothe and feed and not regulate.

The Homes that are staying open these days in Guatemala are largely those who have said they are not providing a service to or for the government, but for the children at risk. To the Glory of a higher government, maybe.

I guess I am a libertarian liberal.

I feel like the government should stick to governing. Keep the peace, and maintain law and order, and that's about it.

I think that governments just don't do a good job at things like managing health care ... or orphanages. Never have, never will. But I don't think profit driven businesses do very well either, at health care, or at orphanages.

I wish, but am not optimistic, that the guys who take the Hippocratic oath could manage health care. And I believe with all that is in me, that those who claim Yahweh and or Jesus as Lord are the ones who are best suited to take care of children at risk. And to do it as their true religion, rather than as a way to make a profit. Kind of like the Levitical order in the Torah, who had a special privilege to handle sacrifices and had no portion of Land to call their own. I think it is fine for those who directly work with the children to receive wages. But as it is a charity, and supported by the offerings of like minded religionists, it should be absolutely transparent, with clear line items. If not, things get really flaky fast.

Posted by: Steve at August 17, 2009 12:14 AM

In 2006, there were an estimated 510,000 children in foster care, just in the US. And that's just the tip of the iceberg...add in kids at risk of foster care placement already in the child welfare system, poor kids at risk of entering the child welfare system, and kids in all these categories (and others) from every other nation around the globe. That's a whole lot of kids for Yahweh's and Jesus' friends to handle.

Posted by: sjbj at August 17, 2009 01:23 PM

The home to which many of the CQ children were sent - the one that refused to give them back - was Steve's "Amor del Nino."

Posted by: M.E. at August 17, 2009 06:05 PM

My child was at the hogar of Primavera and I can say that after our experience, I would not recommend to anyone to use the administrators of this hogar. After we saw our paperwork that was in the "sealed" envelope, we were shocked. We were told more lies than truths and were used for our attorney’s own agenda, something they would be "disbarred" for in the US. I have many friends that have adopted from Guatemala using different attorneys that had perfect cases and some that didn't, but their attorney's didn't lie to them...about their case or about the government and the PGN being a bunch of adoption haters. In fact, one of them actually went to PGN with their attorney and met most of the reviewers and said they were super nice and supportive...the total opposite of what we were always told. It makes me sick to look back at our adoption journey and see all of the lies and deception. Just some food for thought; If the attorney for Primavera was “above board” why isn’t their name on any documents? Why would they have to move kids around to avoid a raid? If the child’s best interest was always at the top of the list and money wasn’t, why does it cost $500 per month to take care of your child when the nannies are paid less than $5 per day? Why is this attorney “always” targeted by the government and the government is “always” wrong? I don’t believe for one second that the Guatemalan officials and agencies are totally honest and perfect all of the time, but come on. It breaks my heart to see the parents and innocent children have their lives and hearts so disrupted by this tragedy, but some of them were told about this hogar and the associated attorney before engaging in a legal agreement with them. I have personally heard this attorney say things that could have them locked up for a long time and this knowledge and seeing what they are doing to innocent people makes me want to vomit.

Posted by: SJA at August 18, 2009 01:38 PM

sjbj said on August 17, 2009, "In 2006, there were an estimated 510,000 childrein i foster care, just in the US...That's a whole lot of kids for Yahweh's and Jesus' friends to handle." Very well put. We may have to ask those horrible atheists and agnostics to help too (said with tongue in check).

Posted by: anonymous at August 18, 2009 02:16 PM

My child was at the hogar of Primavera and I can say that after our experience, I would not recommend to anyone to use the administrators of this hogar. After we saw our paperwork that was in the "sealed" envelope, we were shocked. We were told more lies than truths and were used for our attorney’s own agenda, something they would be "disbarred" for in the US. I have many friends that have adopted from Guatemala using different attorneys that had perfect cases and some that didn't, but their attorney's didn't lie to them...about their case or about the government and the PGN being a bunch of adoption haters. In fact, one of them actually went to PGN with their attorney and met most of the reviewers and said they were super nice and supportive...the total opposite of what we were always told. It makes me sick to look back at our adoption journey and see all of the lies and deception. Just some food for thought; If the attorney for Primavera was “above board” why isn’t their name on any documents? Why would they have to move kids around to avoid a raid? If the child’s best interest was always at the top of the list and money wasn’t, why does it cost $500 per month to take care of your child when the nannies are paid less than $5 per day? Why is this attorney “always” targeted by the government and the government is “always” wrong? I don’t believe for one second that the Guatemalan officials and agencies are totally honest and perfect all of the time, but come on. It breaks my heart to see the parents and innocent children have their lives and hearts so disrupted by this tragedy, but some of them were told about this hogar and the associated attorney before engaging in a legal agreement with them. I have personally heard this attorney say things that could have them locked up for a long time and this knowledge and seeing what they are doing to innocent people makes me want to vomit.

Posted by: SJA at August 19, 2009 08:54 AM

SJA,

Are you a real PAP of a child that stayed at Primavera? Some of the language you used in your post makes me think you are not.

Anonymous

Posted by: anonymous at August 23, 2009 03:13 PM

AJS said "but some of them were told about this hogar and the associated attorney before engaging in a legal agreement with them."

Did you really just pull out an "I told you so"? Wow, that is incredibly insensitive to the families in this situtation.

Also, did you really pay $500 per month throughout your adoption? I know for a fact that this has not been the case for several families that I know (some with cases that took over 2 years) who adopted from Primavera, so I wonder if you are trying to twist the facts for YOUR agenda.

Posted by: anon at August 23, 2009 08:18 PM

The home to which many of the CQ children were sent - the one that refused to give them back - was Steve's "Amor del Nino."

That kind of language comes from a sense of ownership of these children. They have rights, and are human beings. The point of issue in the CQ case was that the resolution ordering the children to be returned to CQ was illegal. The argument Amor del Nino had with the court was in defense of the children's right to a fair and thorough investigation; the original reason for their removal. This had not been accomplished, and the resolution was appealed. That appeal was upheld in the higher court.

The choice of words shows the attitude human rights of M.E. Apparently, M.E. considers some humans commodities to be given and taken by those who own them. I would hope, for the sake of the children in their care, that other AP's would deplore this kind of phrasing.

Posted by: Steve at August 24, 2009 12:25 PM

First to anonymous, I am a "real" AP of a child from Primavera. I had an awful experience. BTW, what language did I use that would give you the impression that I was not a "real" PAP?

Anon - I apologize for the way that statement came across, I didn't mean it to be insensitive. No, I didn't pay $500 per month throughout my adoption. The attorney fee side of my adoption was $20K. I know people in process now that are paying that fee and I know families that are home that paid that amount after the adoptions were shut down to continue the care for their child. This fee was in addition to the attorney fee. Lastly, the agenda you accuse me of having...what would that be?

Posted by: SJA at August 24, 2009 08:43 PM

Anon1;

Can you be more precise? It sounds like anti Susana language makes you doubt SJA's credibility. Which just goes to show....

Or was it the $500/month? Help us: how much do you know to be the amount paid by AP's on average at Primavera?

For Susana's sake, could you be more specific?

SJA: Speaking truth in a very difficult situation will not get everyone's approval. But don't be intimidated! Sensitivity is very fickle and selective on these comments.

Posted by: Steve at August 24, 2009 09:01 PM

SJA,
We are another family that were in process for well over two years. I went to Primavera 7 times and was never limited access anywhere in the hogar, I know where my child's file was kept and regularly checked it while in Guatemala so in my experience there was nothing I hadn't seen once I received the "sealed envelope" as you describe it.

Due to my experience I know literally dozens of Primavera families and have NEVER heard of paying $500 per month. That is not how it works so if this was truly your experience I suggest you were taken by your agency or facilitator who may have communicated this "payment" to you.

To be honest Susana was nothing but really wonderful to us. I know some families that did have issues with her but that was more to do with, let us say, Susana's passionate personality. Never once have I heard anyone concerned about honesty as an attorney.

Posted by: jam at August 24, 2009 11:43 PM

I don't know M.E., but the CQ cases were in fact investigated. The PGN and the MP (Ministerio Publico) interviewed the birthmoms in almost all of the cases. In the cases in which they didn't, the adoptions did not proceed under the "old law" system. What other sort of investigation is needed, Steve? Is there some other entity that needed to investigate the cases/birthmoms?
I am NOT defending Casa Quivira. Yes, I do have a case in process currently that was initiated through Casa Quivira but is no longer being processed by them. I'm simply trying to understand and know what you feel was "left out" of the investigation procedure. My kiddo-to-be was in your care, Steve, when she was removed from CQ and so I'm curious as to what stone has been left unturned in your eye for her case.

Posted by: Karen at August 25, 2009 01:43 AM

Steve, on the Aug 15 thread YOU asked: "How much money did you in fact pay to Susana and or the agencies involved for your child?"

How much did someont pay for their child?!!!!!
Perhaps that shows the attitude towards human rights that YOU have??

Or maybe you were typing quickly and not considering the fact that someone might think the very worst of you and try to villify you for something you typed in haste. And maybe you might give other people (particularly those who disagree with you) the same benefit of the doubt.

Posted by: sjbj at August 25, 2009 09:58 PM

Steve -

Since my issue with you is that you continually comment on these issues without clearly identifying your own investment in the matter at hand, I will be upfront about my own involvement and hope that you will do the same in future discussions.

I am the parent of a child from CQ, who by the grace of g-d, came home before the raid. We have had recently had the great honor of meeting our son's Guatemalan family and can state without doubt that there was no coercion or wrong-doing in the case.

I cannot fathom how you made the leap from my statement that AN did not return the CQ children to CQ (where they had been lovingly cared for until their removal)upon a judge's order to describing me as someone who considers "some humans commodities to be given and taken by those who own them."

I ask that you abide by the rules of this forum and not cast slurs and personal insinuations upon someone based upon your reading of a 2 line comment.

M.E.

Posted by: M.E. at August 26, 2009 01:04 AM

SJA,
The comments that you made seem to indicate that it is your agenda is to lead others believe that the attorney associated with Primavera (I assume you mean Susana, but since you did not use a name, I am not sure) is a liar and extorts money from adoptive families. If that is not your agenda, then feel free to correct me.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience. I don't doubt that you are an AP or that you are stating how your truly feel. However, there are a some things in your comment that could easily lead us (who do not know you) to doubt that what you are saying is (using Steve's approach) the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

-The way that you stated the $500 per month amount was misleading. My case went past the "end of adoptions" and I did not pay anything other than my original attorney fee. Purposefully chosen words can be used to twist the facts, and your statement is worded in a way that would imply that parents of Primavera routinely get ripped off.

-The fact that you claim to know people who had "perfect cases" is just not believeable. Although, I guess that depends on your definition of perfect. Perhaps you mean that they had quick cases.

-The fact that you imply that the PGN does not really hold up cases does not mesh well with my own experience or the experience of others I know who have been in process during the last 2 years. I've spoken with the reviewers at PGN myself. . . yes, they were nice and polite, but they were not honest and they did not do what they said they would do.

-Unless you were lied to about your child's birthdate, birthplace, or something else factual, it's not easy to understand what the sealed packet would contain to prove that you were deceived. The PGN document in the file was dated at the first reviewer (long before the file was actually released), and there was no documentation on previos. I think a lot of people have gotten the same amount of info. I know people who were absolutely deceived by one infamous facilitator, but they have no documentation to prove it.

Did you report the criminal confessions that you heard to the authorities? Or to the USE at your visa interview? Or even to Guatadopt?

I agree with Steve that sensitivity is very fickle in these situations, and I really do not mean anything that I am saying as an attack on you. I am just tired of everyone presenting everything as if this situation is black and white; slanting the facts to either support the idea that the people associated with Primavera are either perfect or evil. The truth is never so simple.

Posted by: anon at August 26, 2009 11:51 AM
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